Vampire weirdness....

Empath Negative · Jul 6, 2012

Fast Healing (Ex)
A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.

So, does this make gaseous form for a vampire... an extraordinary ability? If not, it means that a Vampire in an antimagic field has his gaseous form ability suppressed. If so, he'd just up and die at 0 or lower hitpoints like any other undead.

Dandu · Jul 6, 2012

What does his Gaseous Form ability state?

Sekhmet · Jul 6, 2012

SRD said:
Gaseous Form (Su)
As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

It's right under "Fast Healing", for quick and easy reference.

It doesn't necessarily die at 0 hit points. The text under Fast Healing suggests that it it has two hours to return home, regardless. I assume RAI would argue that if he can't assume Gaseous Form that he just dies, but the wording suggests otherwise.

frankthedm · Jul 6, 2012

Empath Negative said:
So, does this make gaseous form for a vampire... an extraordinary ability? If not, it means that a Vampire in an antimagic field has his gaseous form ability suppressed. If so, he'd just up and die at 0 or lower hitpoints like any other undead.

It does look like there is a miniscule bit of wiggle room if the GM wants to try save the vampire since it is an [Ex] triggering what is normally a [Su] ability.

Nezkrul · Jul 6, 2012

frankthedm said:
It does look like there is a miniscule bit of wiggle room if the GM wants to try save the vampire since it is an [Ex] triggering what is normally a [Su] ability.

the (Ex) triggers the (Su) gaseous form ability, it doesn't magically change the ability's type to (Ex). AMF screws vamps' autogas escape clause because it cannot assume (Su) gaseous form as a standard action nor as a non-action from being reduced to less than 1 hit point.

Sekhmet · Jul 6, 2012

[MENTION=6682154]Nezkrul[/MENTION] I think he was referring to the text of Fast Healing.

SRD said:
Fast Healing (Ex)
A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.

If we break it down, it could mean either or two things.
The first is your interpretation: If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it instead assumes Gaseous Form in which case he attempts to find his coffin within two hours. If Gaseous Form is blocked through AMS, the vampire fails to enter Gaseous Form and therefor dies.

The second interpretation, while still RAW (which means it has wiggle room) is: If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it attempts to assume Gaseous Form. It has two hours to reach it's coffin, or it is destroyed. In this interpretation, whether or not Gaseous Form is blocked, the Vampire still seeks out his coffin and won't die until the two hours has passed.

While the SRD entry actually says the second interpretation, whether or not the developers had meant to give continuity between Gaseous Form and coffin seeking isn't clear.

Nezkrul · Jul 7, 2012

automatically assumes gaseous form, not attempts to. This is an (Ex) non-action trigger for gaseous form. Now, refer to the gaseous form ability for its rules; it is (Su), which do not function inside AMF.

RAI vamp dies in AMF at 0 hitpoints since it can't assume gaseous form, and ALL undead, unless specified otherwise (like a vampire's (Ex) trigger for its (Su) gaseous form) are destroyed at 0 hitpoints or fewer. -The vamp doesn't get a chance to flee the AMF for his coffin, he dies.

Sekhmet · Jul 7, 2012

Yes, I agree that RAI probably says that if the vampire cannot assume Gaseous Form, he dies.
RAW is ambiguous. It doesn't explicitly state that if he fails to assume Gaseous Form, he dies. In fact, the wording suggests that Gaseous Form is just his method of escape - not that it is what prevents him from dying. It just says that after the Gaseous Form ability is triggered (which still occurs in an AMF, it just doesn't do anything), he attempts to escape.

SRD said:
If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect.

As you can see, the wording and sentence structure doesn't judge in favor of what you and I believe RAI to be.

Nezkrul · Jul 7, 2012

i'm sorry that you actually might have to turn the pages of your books in order to look up what is already presented in the RAW.

so here, since you need everything shown to you, i'll help cuz you don't wanna look it up yourself.

Types & Subtypes :: d20srd.org

the link above said:
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.

Vampires avoid this because of their fast healing special ability saying they assume gaseous form, here:
Vampire :: d20srd.org

vampire link said:
Fast Healing (Ex)
A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) this part is referring to it explicitly being in gaseous form for traveling to its coffin within 2 hours Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour which will only occur if it is in its coffin, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.

Vamp's Gaseous Form ability:

vamp link said:
Gaseous Form (Su)
As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

The fast healing rules give the vamp a non-action (Ex) trigger to allow it to gas out of dieing. Gaseous form is still a (Su) ability, and will not function/trigger while in the area of an Antimagic Field:
Antimagic Field :: d20srd.org

Now, from the rules for Slaying a Vampire, in the vampire monster entry:

vamp link said:
Slaying a Vampire
Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent)

incapacitates its but doesn't always destroy means that the damage CAN destroy it without allowing it to escape, see the note on its fast healing... aka prevent gaseous form and you have an undead creature at 0 or fewer hitpoins, which is where base rules for Undead creature type kick in, and the creature is destroyed... which fulfills the but doesn't always destroy clause... because of extraneous measures taken by the vampires enemy it is destroyed with no chance to escape simply by taking too much damage.

Sekhmet · Jul 8, 2012

[MENTION=6682154]Nezkrul[/MENTION] Unless being in Gaseous Form changes the Vampire's type from Undead, he's still at 0 HP until he rests for one hour in his coffin. - Type concern eliminated.
You have confused the terms implicit and explicit. There may be implication that, if Gaseous Form is unable to be assumed, the vampire would die, however it is not explicitly stated.
Therefor, while Gaseous Form does not function within an AMS, the non-action Ex trigger still occurs. If the AMF's duration expires or is otherwise dismissed, the Vampire's Gaseous Form would (assuming no omre than two hours has passed) allow him to seek his coffin for the remainder of the two hours.
Strictly speaking, Gaseous Form is cast and is suppressed by the AMF. AMF does not prevent spells from being cast, it suppresses their effects.

Also, you'll note that I've cited many of the same SRD pages as you have, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't feel the need to belittle me.
You'll also be kind to note that I've been studying language all my life, and when you try to tell me that the words don't mean what they actually mean, I get frustrated much more quickly than is usual for a person of my collected temperament.

Vampire weirdness....

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