D&D 4th Edition Working in the Game Mine - Page 11


What's on your mind?

  1. #101
    Registered User
    Magsman (Lvl 14)

    Fifth Element's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Fredericton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    6,040
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    Ignore Fifth Element
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    With inherently restrictive aspects like combat roles it doesn't matter how much ketchup you slather on them. That's why I didn't bothering leaving in any of the qualifiers in the quote.
    You're assuming that monsters are designed to fit only narrow parameters, rather than descriptive terms being applied after the monster has been designed.

    Even in 4E this is rarely true. The monster that has characteristics of one and only one role are fairly rare, I think (except for minions, which of course are designed to be extremely simple).

    I'm still not sure why monster roles are all that different than character classes.

 

  • #102
    Registered User
    The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)

    Mark CMG's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI 53147
    Posts
    8,910
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews
    GM's DayCMG

    Ignore Mark CMG
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonCourage View Post
    Not necessarily. It really depends on what those parameters are. If it's merely a tactical approach to combat, it's not really restrictive if they are willing to list more than one role, and the roles don't lock them into anything.

    But, that's what restrictive means. They are designed to do things in a particular limited range of ways that do not generally overlap with other combat roles.


    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonCourage View Post
    As always, play what you like

    The slogan of combat roles should be something like, "This is how we designed these to work, but play it anyway you like. "
    Fighting Fire - Ernie Gygax Relief Fund

    Please, help boost the signal!

    http://tinyurl.com/gygaxrelief

    As always,
    Mark CMG
    CreativeMountainGames.com

  • #103
    Registered User
    The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)

    Mark CMG's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI 53147
    Posts
    8,910
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews
    GM's DayCMG

    Ignore Mark CMG
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth Element View Post
    You're assuming that monsters are designed to fit only narrow parameters, (. . .)
    Assuming? I would call it "stating."


    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth Element View Post
    (. . .) rather than descriptive terms being applied after the monster has been designed.

    My point exactly, regarding the polishing of certain things not making them not those certain things anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth Element View Post
    Even in 4E this is rarely true. The monster that has characteristics of one and only one role are fairly rare, I think (except for minions, which of course are designed to be extremely simple).

    On the sliding scale of recognizing what is restrictive, I see you are way over in that area that can only see it in minions. Going forward, we're just going to be repeating ourselves so we should agree to disagree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth Element View Post
    I'm still not sure why monster roles are all that different than character classes.

    We should probably keep this on topic but this should have all sorts of irony alarms going off in your head.
    Fighting Fire - Ernie Gygax Relief Fund

    Please, help boost the signal!

    http://tinyurl.com/gygaxrelief

    As always,
    Mark CMG
    CreativeMountainGames.com

  • #104
    Registered User
    Magsman (Lvl 14)

    JamesonCourage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,804
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    Ignore JamesonCourage
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    But, that's what restrictive means. They are designed to do things in a particular limited range of ways that do not generally overlap with other combat roles.
    No, you're describing prescriptive, and not descriptive. I can describe myself as intelligent, handsome, charming, articulate, and always right, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing else to me; I'm just pointing out my strengths

    When I describe an ogre, if I describe it as a "brute", we know that it's good at hitting things and taking hits. It doesn't mean it can't throw or shoot things at people. It doesn't mean it can't try to sneak. It's just talking to the strength of the creature in that particular role.

    Thus, make the creature, then describe it with roles, using multiple roles if appropriate. Descriptive, not prescriptive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    The slogan of combat roles should be something like, "This is how we designed these to work, but play it anyway you like. "
    I think this is incorrect, honestly. You don't have to assign a role before designing a creature. I could go through the 3.5 MM right now and describe them via a "role" if I wanted to, and many would be one role, some would be two, some would be more. But, here's the thing; it's just easy shorthand. And, for people that want to make their own monsters, they can still give guidelines on how to use them in a prescriptive manner, but it's not necessary. They can be just description. As always, play what you like
    As always, play what you like

  • #105
    Registered User
    The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)

    Mark CMG's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI 53147
    Posts
    8,910
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews
    GM's DayCMG

    Ignore Mark CMG
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonCourage View Post
    No, you're describing prescriptive, and not descriptive. I can describe myself as intelligent, handsome, charming, articulate, and always right, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing else to me; I'm just pointing out my strengths

    Are you also a "Striker" that fights by . . .X, Y, Z? Then the rest of what you've added is tacked on rather than being at the restrictive core of what you are.


    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonCourage View Post
    When I describe an ogre, if I describe it as a "brute", we know that it's good at hitting things and taking hits. It doesn't mean it can't throw or shoot things at people. It doesn't mean it can't try to sneak. It's just talking to the strength of the creature in that particular role.

    Right. That's the point. And the one that is a brute does brute things in a brute way and when trying to anything un-brute-like finds that it can only do them brutishly. And if I want an ogre that isn't a brute I create a separate ogre and call it by the combat role I design for it to be best at.


    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonCourage View Post
    I could go through the 3.5 MM right now and (. . .)

    Nope, don't go there.
    Fighting Fire - Ernie Gygax Relief Fund

    Please, help boost the signal!

    http://tinyurl.com/gygaxrelief

    As always,
    Mark CMG
    CreativeMountainGames.com

  • #106
    Registered User
    Magsman (Lvl 14)

    Fifth Element's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Fredericton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    6,040
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    Ignore Fifth Element
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    Assuming? I would call it "stating."
    I thought we were discussing 5E design. We can't just state things about that, because it's not done yet.

    You left off the qualifier because you assumed the qualifier would not apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    We should probably keep this on topic but this should have all sorts of irony alarms going off in your head.
    Should I now? We are discussing a game in which characters are largely defined by their class. That should be considered when discussing whether monsters could be largely defined by something similar, their role.

  • #107
    Registered User
    Magsman (Lvl 14)

    JamesonCourage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,804
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    Ignore JamesonCourage
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    Are you also a "Striker" that fights by . . .X, Y, Z? Then the rest of what you've added is tacked on rather than being at the restrictive core of what you are.
    Do I carry a gun that I'm good with, and have I neglected to learn any strong hand-to-hand style? I might be artillery then. If I'm good with a gun that I carry, and I also good at hand-to-hand combat and defending myself, then sure, go ahead and throw soldier on there as well.

    (Aside: Your example is a class role, which is something I'm not talking about (nor was the article, to my knowledge); continued use of such examples won't be much use to me in this discussion.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    Right. That's the point. And the one that is a brute does brute things in a brute way and when trying to anything un-brute-like finds that it can only do them brutishly. And if I want an ogre that isn't a brute I create a separate ogre and call it by the combat role I design for it to be best at.
    Well, if the first ogre is good at other things, describe it that way by giving it that role as well. If it's not... yes, expect it to be bad at things not listed.

    And, if you want an ogre who is good at other things, you can always make one. I know that the ogre in 3.5 isn't much good at things other than hitting things and taking a few hits (he sucks at attacking with his javelin, but does decent damage). Should I list artillery because of it? I'd say no (he does suck at attacking), but because it says "brute" is doesn't mean I wouldn't have him throw his javelin if it makes sense for him to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    Nope, don't go there.
    Why not?
    As always, play what you like

  • #108
    Registered User
    The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)

    Mark CMG's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI 53147
    Posts
    8,910
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews
    GM's DayCMG

    Ignore Mark CMG
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth Element View Post
    I thought we were discussing 5E design.

    Specifically about combat roles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth Element View Post
    Should I now?

    Yup.
    Fighting Fire - Ernie Gygax Relief Fund

    Please, help boost the signal!

    http://tinyurl.com/gygaxrelief

    As always,
    Mark CMG
    CreativeMountainGames.com

  • #109
    Registered User
    The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)

    Mark CMG's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI 53147
    Posts
    8,910
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews
    GM's DayCMG

    Ignore Mark CMG
    My communities:

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonCourage View Post
    (Aside: Your example is a class role, which is something I'm not talking about (. . .)

    Don't kid yourself, it is a combat role used as a class role and it's very much part of what we're discussing.


    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonCourage View Post
    And, if you want an ogre who is good at other things, you can always make one.

    You're getting warmer.


    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonCourage View Post
    Why not?

    Because you'll be going alone?
    Fighting Fire - Ernie Gygax Relief Fund

    Please, help boost the signal!

    http://tinyurl.com/gygaxrelief

    As always,
    Mark CMG
    CreativeMountainGames.com

  • #110
    Registered User
    Magsman (Lvl 14)

    Fifth Element's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Fredericton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    6,040
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    Ignore Fifth Element
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark CMG View Post
    Specifically about combat roles.

    Yup.
    Thanks very much for clarifying. Neither of these actually provide any additional information nor address my comments in the post you're quoting.

    I suppose we are done if this is all you can give me.

  • + Log in or register to post
    Page 11 of 18 FirstFirst ... 23456789101112131415161718 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Working in the Game Mine
      By Wizards of the Coast in forum News
      Replies: 176
      Last Post: Wednesday, 18th July, 2012, 06:48 PM
    2. Working the game
      By Aion in forum Older D&D Editions and OSR Gaming
      Replies: 11
      Last Post: Friday, 21st August, 2009, 09:32 AM
    3. I'm working on a d20 future game
      By Aeson in forum General RPG Discussion
      Replies: 13
      Last Post: Wednesday, 13th April, 2005, 08:00 AM
    4. Replies: 5
      Last Post: Friday, 10th January, 2003, 11:16 AM
    5. Replies: 70
      Last Post: Sunday, 15th September, 2002, 04:24 PM

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •