D&D 5E A Modest Proposal to Unify the Fanbase without D&D Next

Mallus · Jul 17, 2012

Tony Vargas said:
The success of Pathfinder and retro-clones certainly demonstrates a viable business opportunity that WotC let others pick up by failing to keep ongoing support for classic D&D and 3.5, FWIW.

Careful with your evidence, there.

What Pathfinder demonstrates is a company smaller than WotC, which excels in an area they weren't finding profitable (ie, adventures), can succeed by supporting 3e-style D&D.

What the OSR demonstrates is a cottage industry producing older D&D compatible materials, often offering their materials free of cost, can keep doing so. Presumably because they have day jobs. This is not to knock the OSR, I've bought some great supplements, but that says roughly nothing about the economic realities faced by WotC.

5e is trying to do the same thing that simply re-printing and supporting old editions would do: capture revenue from fans of older editions.

This is misleading.

What they're doing, rules-wise, is synthesizing several edition into a new one. Personally, that's what I want. I don't need reprints -- I have all the originals. Looking at 5e as merely a money-grab directed at fans of older editions misses a critical point: there are plenty of D&D fans who'd like a less complicated and faster playing version of 3e/4e or a more mechanically robust version of AD&D/2e -- ie, the kind of game WoTC is aiming for.

Elf Witch · Jul 17, 2012

While I think they should support their older editions with either reprints, print on demand or PDFs. I do think they should be try and bring out a new edition.

As for new content for older editions a magazine either print or online could handle this fairly well. How hard would it be to have options and adventures written for the different editions? There are a lot of people who have the ability to write such articles

Also bringing out edition free books on settings is a wonderful idea.

Fifth Element · Jul 17, 2012

Tony Vargas said:
They're re-publishing 1e, anyway, why not just put out the new stuff for it, too?

They are not getting back into publishing 1E. They are re-printing some 1E books. It's not the same thing. Converting a 1E book to modern publishing standards is not the equivalent of developing entirely new products.

innerdude · Jul 17, 2012

thecasualoblivion said:
I'm not really in the market for a new RPG, to be honest, but WotC is in the market for ME. If WotC wants me as a customer, they need to do better than to staple together a bunch of sacred cows from various editions, many of which I could care less about or find offensive, with no overall guiding plan.

Yup, yes, exactly, spot on, bingo.

Tony Vargas · Jul 17, 2012

Fifth Element said:
They are not getting back into publishing 1E. They are re-printing some 1E books. It's not the same thing. Converting a 1E book to modern publishing standards is not the equivalent of developing entirely new products.

OK, They're re-printing 1e, anyway, why not just put out some new stuff for it, too? It wouldn't have to be a lot. The occasional module or campaign guide with stats for every ed in the back. Re-printed supplements - and, eventually, new ones. It wouldn't require a vast development effort since 1e was a pretty complete game, anyway, by the end of it's 10+ year run.

Kabluey · Jul 17, 2012

I doubt you'll ever see this happen, no matter how many signatures you get.

First, dropping 5E and supporting only the prior editions leaves out a potentially large group - or at least it seems like a large group to me, because it's the group that I'm a part of

. That is, the group of players who have left D&D for other games. I've DM'd every edition since 1st (never ran or played Basic D&D, though I read the rules and still own the old Rules Cyclopedia), and for the first 15-20 years of my gaming life ran D&D almost exclusively, from 1st up through 3rd Edition. But 3E killed it for me. It was too complex, too many of the products were crap, and I wanted to try different things. I certainly look back on my 1st and 2nd games with fondness, but I don't want to play those games again. They were great when I ran them, but the mechanics are dated now. So if WoTC wants to draw back in the segment of the fan base that I represent, then a new edition is needed. And though I didn't mention it, I did pick up 4E briefly with enthusiasm when it first came out - and hated it.

Second, while nostalgic reprints are nice, I can't see WoTC having enough staff to support all these editions, especially older ones.

Third, I'm not sure that they'd sell that many copies. I still have my old 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Edition books; why do I have to buy them again? Sure, they could sell modules, but it was always my understanding that modules aren't a big money-maker for companies. For every book you sell, you at best sell only 1/5th the number of module copies, assuming every group buys your module.

Fourth, and finally, I just can't see WoTC doing this. Sure, they don't mind selling some 1st and 3.5 books now, as well as obviously continuing to support 4E for a while longer, but when 5E comes out in a year or so, they're not going to want sales of prior editions to cannibalize 5E sales. When they launch a new edition, they don't just drop support of the prior one because they're mean or don't care about that fan base, it's because it makes the most business sense.

I'm sorry 5E isn't turning out the way you would have wanted (though there's still plenty of time for that to change, of course), but short of ponying up the cash to buy the IP or company, I don't think you're going to see this happen.

Tony Vargas · Jul 17, 2012

Mallus said:
What Pathfinder demonstrates is a company smaller than WotC, which excels in an area they weren't finding profitable (ie, adventures), can succeed by supporting 3e-style D&D.

Sure, it's obvious that Paizo, a small business by any reasonable definition, and WotC, a unit of a huge corporation, necessarily have different business models. For Paizo, exploiting the opportunity presented by ongoing demand for 3.5 support is different than it would be for WotC, but both could still try to do it.

And, if WotC is so intent on 're-uniting' their fan base, they clearly /want/ to do it.

What they're doing, rules-wise, is synthesizing several edition into a new one.

And the reason they're doing it is to re-capture the lost revenue that fans of past eds of D&D represent. They may also get plenty of longtime fans who'll buy anything with the logo, and those curious to see whether it's any good, at first, but they are very clearly going back and resurrecting bits of old editions in an appeal to nostalgia - and revenue a successful appeal to nostalgia might bring. They're a for-profit enterprise, and one that is held to quarterly numbers by a corporate parent. Everything they do is about revenue.

I don't need reprints -- I have all the originals.

Which is why they shouldn't stop at re-prints, but put out new material for old eds, as well.

Looking at 5e as merely a money-grab directed at fans of older editions misses a critical point:

The re-prints are clearly a money-grab, even if they're going to give some of it to charity. 5e's appeal to nostalgia is clearly about more than selling one set of books, but getting old fans back on board to buy new stuff going forward. Making new stuff they actually want would also accomplish that.

there are plenty of D&D fans who'd like a less complicated and faster playing version of 3e/4e or a more mechanically robust version of AD&D/2e -- ie, the kind of game WoTC is aiming for.

Meh. I see a lot of fans who are rabid about their favorite edition. I see some who are OK with the game changing and moving forward. The only context in which I see people bringing up compromises like that is when they're arguing against someone who's equally rabid, in an attempt to look a little less rabid, while still knocking a dis-favored ed. But, then, I've got edition-war PTSD... ;(

Fifth Element · Jul 17, 2012

Tony Vargas said:
The only context in which I see people bringing up compromises like that is when they're arguing against someone who's equally rabid, in an attempt to look a little less rabid, while still knocking a dis-favored ed. But, then, I've got edition-war PTSD... ;(

You should get that looked at.

I'd very much like to see something in-between the complexity of 1/2e and 3/4. That could deal with the frustrations I have with both of them.

El Mahdi · Jul 17, 2012

Neuroglyph said:
A Modest Proposal to Unify the Fanbase without D&D Next

I agree with at least part of your proposal: I think WotC should provide support for all previous editions. I think they should do this in the form of returning access for purchasin downloadable electronic versions of all previous edition material in an ownable format, support on DDI for each and every edition (character builders, monster builders, encounter builders, compendiums, etc.), and new material in the form of articles in Dragon and Dungeon.

However, I do still want 5E. I like new editions. New shiny.

If you had a petition for just the first part, I'd sign it, get my group to sign it, and kidnap people off the street and hold them until they signed it (just kidding about that last part...maybe

).

But, I think this likely an exercise in futility. And I don't agree that WotC isn't trying to support all fans with 5E. It may not be the support everybody wants, but they are certainly trying.

rjfTrebor · Jul 17, 2012

if you think WotC is just going to throw out two years of work because you made a petition, you're gonna have a bad time.

Also, i like that you think you can speak for the entire community, i for one don't want to keep playing the same editions of DnD, i like them to come up with something new every few years.