D&D 5E Another D&D Next Playtest Survey

ForeverSlayer · Jul 22, 2012

Harlock said:
If a wizard wants to burn spell slots and risk a trap blowing up in his face, sure...

Bingo!

Thank you for actually saying something that is truthful instead of the mythical answer that some people tend to use a lot.

Knock has never replaced the rogue. It was meant to be a contingency in case the rogue died or there wasn't one. Sometimes you have to take a risk of setting off the trap to get to the other side of that door because what's coming could be just as dangerous.

ForeverSlayer · Jul 22, 2012

drothgery said:
Knock has always worked at range, and is sufficiently low-level that even without 3.x-style wands, it's not difficult to always have it prepared or on a scroll by mid to high levels.

But many times the rooms aren't large enough for you to be able to stand back that far and still be able to use the spell. Also, traps going off can set off more traps or alert other creatures that you are there.

Funny how these things don't seem to get mentioned in these types of arguments.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Jul 22, 2012

Sometimes, the Rogue rolls badly, fails to open the lock and triggers a trap.

There is clearly no possible way to rely on Rogues or Wizards to open locks and deal with traps. I suggest sending the Barbarian. He has the hit points, the strength, and he's dumb enough to do it.

ForeverSlayer · Jul 22, 2012

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Sometimes, the Rogue rolls badly, fails to open the lock and triggers a trap.

There is clearly no possible way to rely on Rogues or Wizards to open locks and deal with traps. I suggest sending the Barbarian. He has the hit points, the strength, and he's dumb enough to do it.

Fighter: "Hey Kronk"

Barbarian: "Yeah"

Fighter: "The door said something about your mother"

Barbarian: "ROARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Door: "Oh sh&t" (boom!)

Barbarian: "Nobody talk about Mom"

Lanefan · Jul 23, 2012

gyor said:
Best used for Plane Shift ever. I never thought of using planeshift offensively before.

Odd...I thought the caster of a Planeshift always had to go along for the ride; or did that change after 1e?

Lanefan

Serendipity · Jul 23, 2012

Lanefan said:
Odd...I thought the caster of a Planeshift always had to go along for the ride; or did that change after 1e?

Nope. Per the 1e Players Handbook:

When the plane shift spell is cost, the cleric
moves himself or herself or some other creature to another plane of
existence. The recipient of the spell will remain in the new plane until sent
forth by some like means. If several persons link hands in a circle, up to
seven can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. The material
component of this spell is o small, forked metal rod - the exact size and
metal type dictating to which plane of existence the spell will send the
affected creature(s) to. (Your referee will determine specifics regarding
how and what planes are reached.) An unwilling victim must be touched
in order to be sent thusly; and in addition, the creature also is allowed a
saving throw, and if the latter is successful the effect of the spell is
negated.

Offensive use of the plane shift spell is one of my favorite high level cleric tricks.

pemerton · Jul 24, 2012

ForeverSlayer said:
Knock has never replaced the rogue. It was meant to be a contingency in case the rogue died or there wasn't one.

That's fine, as long as the 9th level rogue gets a "lead party through the byways of the multiverse" power to substitute for teleport in case the wizard dies or there isn't one (I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Dark Wanderer epic destiny's Dark Road ability).

Underman · Jul 24, 2012

pemerton said:
That's fine, as long as the 9th level rogue gets a "lead party through the byways of the multiverse" power to substitute for teleport in case the wizard dies or there isn't one (I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Dark Wanderer epic destiny's Dark Road ability).

Based on fantasy tropes, that sounds more like a ritual or fey boon or something that any class could access. Alternatively, is it an absolute must that a wizardless party be able to instaneously transport about, or can't they walk or ride the hard (mundane) way, or they specificallly go on a side quest to get the magic item or winged horses or mercenary wizard/sorcerer? Any of those feel far more satisfying than giving a rogue a "me too!" ability.

billd91 · Jul 24, 2012

pemerton said:
That's fine, as long as the 9th level rogue gets a "lead party through the byways of the multiverse" power to substitute for teleport in case the wizard dies or there isn't one (I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Dark Wanderer epic destiny's Dark Road ability).

How does that follow from knock not replacing the rogue at opening locks?

Manbearcat · Jul 24, 2012

Underman said:
Based on fantasy tropes, that sounds more like a ritual or fey boon or something that any class could access. Alternatively, is it an absolute must that a wizardless party be able to instaneously transport about, or can't they walk or ride the hard (mundane) way, or they specificallly go on a side quest to get the magic item or winged horses or mercenary wizard/sorcerer? Any of those feel far more satisfying than giving a rogue a "me too!" ability.

Yes, they feel far more satisfying period...not just from the angle of to give a rogue a "me too!" ability or to not. Removing the wizards, on call, plot-point circumventing tools generally creates more fun for many DMs and a great many players whose staple of their gameplay is not "how can my wizard beat the game?" High level wizard spells (level 5 and upward), with both their hard-coded mechanics and their open-ended ones, narrow the scope of climactic plot potential both during prep and during gameplay rather than broadening them.

Is it more fun to actualize an extended Investigatory Skill Challenge (or even free form if you'd like) where all PCs have to play their part in the unwinding of a mystery or intrigue to find out who "Jack the Ripper" really is?...or is it more fun to agonize (in prep) and then inevitably have the wizard prepare one or more of his plot-point-circumventing, on call, Divination spells to Jack Bauerize your DM terrorist plot?...and who at the table is this actually fun for?

The exact can be said for any Exploratory plot-point-circumventing spells.

Those players whose staple of their gameplay actually is "how can my wizard beat the game?"...well, presumably this is fun for them. And no, you don't have to be a vindictive child with flailing self-esteem issues to just play a standard high level wizard and obliterate the breadth of scope of gameplay...you can do it without even angling toward "how can my wizard beat the game?"