D&D 5th Edition Another D&D Next Playtest Survey - Page 12





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  1. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by billd91 View Post
    How does that follow from knock not replacing the rogue at opening locks?
    I don't want to speak for Pemerton (but I suppose I will) but I suspect the angle of his ire is pointed at the Generalist Wizard and the painful lack of anything sniffing the realm of parity with other classes. Perhaps something akin to:

    - The Generalist Wizard can adequately stand in for (but not replace) the Rogue at level 3 (with invisibility and knock).
    - The Generalist Wizard can more than adequately stand in for (and thus replace) the Rogue by level 9 (and anyone else except for the Cleric).
    - The Generalist Wizard is irreplaceable by level 9 as once he has access to level 5 spells, no one else can reproduce his impact (micro or macro) on the game...or come close to it.

    As such, I propose a French Revolution of DnD where the Generalist Wizard is Marie Antoinette.
    Last edited by Manbearcat; Tuesday, 24th July, 2012 at 01:52 PM.

 

  • #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Manbearcat View Post
    I don't want to speak for Pemerton (but I suppose I will) but I suspect the angle of his ire is pointed at the Generalist Wizard and the painful lack of anything sniffing the realm of parity with other classes. Perhaps something akin to:

    - The Generalist Wizard can adequately stand in for the Rogue at level 3 (with invisibility and knock).
    - The Generalist Wizard can more than adequately stand in for the Rogue by level 9 (and anyone else except for the Cleric).
    - The Generalist Wizard is irreplaceable by level 9 as once he has access to level 5 spells, no one else can reproduce his impact (micro or macro) on the game...or come close to it.
    Every time I read these posts I find them kind of persuasive. Then I remember actually playing D&D, and realize that wizards are probably the least popular of the big four classes, and that I've never seen one come close to taking over a game in a decade plus of gaming with all manner of players, DMs, and styles. Funny how that works.
    "Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose"

  • #113
    I am very glad for you for not having experienced it. It means that you must have had consistent fun, from both sides of the DM screen, in our mutual hobby throughout your gaming life.

    It would appear that some are not as lucky as you for whatever reason (badwrongfun?...you're just better at playing DnD?...magic?). If it does happen to be pixie dust, I would appreciate it if you'd spread the wealth. I can paypal you and pm you my address.

  • #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahnehnois View Post
    Every time I read these posts I find them kind of persuasive. Then I remember actually playing D&D, and realize that wizards are probably the least popular of the big four classes, and that I've never seen one come close to taking over a game in a decade plus of gaming with all manner of players, DMs, and styles. Funny how that works.
    Actually we stopped using wizards in 3e because they spoiled the fun for everybody. That may be a reason why you don't see them played too much in 2e/3e games, they're so powerful that I would feel cheating if I used them.
    Actually my first 3e character was a wizard. I ran it up to 17th level and then realized it was not fun anymore. After a long DMing period, I came back as a player with a Swordsage and that was real fun.

  • #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Manbearcat View Post
    I am very glad for you for not having experienced it. It means that you must have had consistent fun, from both sides of the DM screen, in our mutual hobby throughout your gaming life.
    Well, not 100%, but I've done pretty well.

    It would appear that some are not as lucky as you for whatever reason (badwrongfun?...you're just better at playing DnD?...magic?). If it does happen to be pixie dust, I would appreciate it if you'd spread the wealth. I can paypal you and pm you my address.
    Can't tell what the sarcasm quotient is on this post, but if I had any trenchant words of wisdom, I would share them. I do honestly suspect that if myself and the other experienced DMs of the world could have our services disseminated and experiences shared more widely, the gaming world would be a better place, but D&D is inherently insular, and everyone's game is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by erleni View Post
    Actually we stopped using wizards in 3e because they spoiled the fun for everybody. That may be a reason why you don't see them played too much in 2e/3e games, they're so powerful that I would feel cheating if I used them.
    I am not 100% sure what accounts for people's varying experiences with wizards, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with real-world time. The memorization of high-level spells is such an intricate and laborious process that most people don't want to do it. Even though I went to spell points and simplified spell DCs, it is still a lot of bookkeeping. Most players simply aren't willing to research the best spells or combinations thereof.

    I also find that durability is a large concern, and players are afraid their casters will die. Perhaps in games with a lower level of challenge, this is not an issue. Players also are afraid of running out of spells, and prefer those characters that "take a licking and keep on ticking"; I find warlocks do well.

    I also find that players who do play such characters and do learn game-breaking spells are reluctant to cast them, again for fear of running out of resources or perhaps fear of being cheesy, as you say.

    Bottom line; I don't deny the diversity of people's gaming experiences in this regard, but I don't see power the 1e-3e arcane spellcasters as being the main issue for the game moving forward.
    "Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose"

  • #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manbearcat View Post
    I am very glad for you for not having experienced it. It means that you must have had consistent fun, from both sides of the DM screen, in our mutual hobby throughout your gaming life.

    It would appear that some are not as lucky as you for whatever reason (badwrongfun?...you're just better at playing DnD?...magic?). If it does happen to be pixie dust, I would appreciate it if you'd spread the wealth. I can paypal you and pm you my address.
    Yeah, but just because you've been stuck in games where Knock and other generalist Wizard spells have ruined your game, it doesn't mean therefore that all those spells need/should be removed. Because if enough other people are able to run their games fine with them and have nothing break... then removing them for no reason other than some people don't like them is not enough.

    Because after all... if you want those spells removed from the game because they break it, there's nothing stopping you or your group from removing them yourselves from your own game. You don't need WotC to do it for you.

  • #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahnehnois View Post
    Well, not 100%, but I've done pretty well.

    Can't tell what the sarcasm quotient is on this post, but if I had any trenchant words of wisdom, I would share them. I do honestly suspect that if myself and the other experienced DMs of the world could have our services disseminated and experiences shared more widely, the gaming world would be a better place, but D&D is inherently insular, and everyone's game is different.

    I am not 100% sure what accounts for people's varying experiences with wizards, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with real-world time.

    Bottom line; I don't deny the diversity of people's gaming experiences in this regard, but I don't see power the 1e-3e arcane spellcasters as being the main issue for the game moving forward.
    I've got 20 + years of DMing 50 or so players, 30 of which were of 10 year tenure or so. I've seen all manner of gamers. I can tell you precisely what I've noted as the largest issue with the wizard repertoire:

    1) Extremely smart people who are well above average linear problem solvers and highly proficient nonlinear problem solvers. If you give them an extended supply of resources that leverage both their linear and nonlinear problem-solving-skillsets, expect them to max out the load-bearing capacity of those resources and expect the problems to be solved in short order...and expect investigatory and exploratory plot device to be nullified. The 4e analog to this is when decriers of that system complain that if you place scripted, thematic powers in front of people they will do nothing but leverage those buttons and it will create for a monotonous table experience.

    2) Couple those players with your Average Joe who does not possess their skillset nor the drive to maximize it.

    3) Couple that with well above average, highly analytical players who desperately want a proper and equitable "martial experience" from their fighters, rogues, rangers, etc.

    4) Couple that with resources limited only by the propensity for DMs to use transparent conventions to curtail their limits. If the DM chooses to use said transparent conventions (the world hates you and therefore this contrived "happenstance" consistently disrupts your ability to restore your resources), expect either passive aggressive or open derision from the players who have more cognitive capacity than a box of rocks. The same passive aggressive or open derision follows from the effort to "operatively condition" the group, over time, through use of more subtle (but still contrived...hence the problem) resource disruption techniques. Following that, expect "suspension of disbelief", "immersion", "living, breathing worldism" to be short-circuited for all parties at the table.

    5) Couple that with an open acknowledgement of the mechanical deficiencies of the system but an unwillingness, due to vindictiveness or other, to come to social accord to not leverage those deficiencies.


    My guess is that one or more of these things are present in people's games who suffer from this issue. Ahnehnois, there are people out there who have just as much experience as you or I (or more)...just as much analytical ferocity as you or I (or more)...and they suffer these issues. Dismiss their experience and fail to address their concerns at the hobby's peril.

    I desperately want this hobby to persist through the next few generations so I desperately would like all lobbies to be able to play the game of their choice within the framework of a unified ruleset (if possible). I hope we're on the same team.

  • #118
    Quote Originally Posted by DEFCON 1 View Post
    Yeah, but just because you've been stuck in games where Knock and other generalist Wizard spells have ruined your game, it doesn't mean therefore that all those spells need/should be removed. Because if enough other people are able to run their games fine with them and have nothing break... then removing them for no reason other than some people don't like them is not enough.

    Because after all... if you want those spells removed from the game because they break it, there's nothing stopping you or your group from removing them yourselves from your own game. You don't need WotC to do it for you.
    I never implied nor explicated (in the above posts or others) that I want them removed from the game so please do not put those words in my mouth (on my hands?). I've written about this multiple times. I would like the option to have them constrained and bounded. Nothing more.

  • #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahnehnois View Post
    Every time I read these posts I find them kind of persuasive. Then I remember actually playing D&D, and realize that wizards are probably the least popular of the big four classes, and that I've never seen one come close to taking over a game in a decade plus of gaming with all manner of players, DMs, and styles. Funny how that works.
    ... seriously? The least popular of the big four IME is the healbot. It's the one "someone's got to play". But a big factor is, I suspect, the starting level and expected length of the campaign. Because 1 spell/day was rough. And even 2 1st level spells was ... not nice. In 3e (3 1st level spells, four cantrips) this melted away a bit.

    There has been a vast powering up of wizards over the editions - and they started to really break in 1e at level 9 or so - not coincidently the same level the fighter picked up lands and the wizard a tower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahnehnois View Post
    I am not 100% sure what accounts for people's varying experiences with wizards, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with real-world time. The memorization of high-level spells is such an intricate and laborious process that most people don't want to do it. Even though I went to spell points and simplified spell DCs, it is still a lot of bookkeeping. Most players simply aren't willing to research the best spells or combinations thereof.
    I suspect the internet had a lot of impact here - I can look up which the broken spells are rather than have to go through the sourcebooks spell by spell.

  • #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Manbearcat View Post
    5) Couple that with an open acknowledgement of the mechanical deficiencies of the system but an unwillingness, due to vindictiveness or other, to come to social accord to not leverage those deficiencies.
    That's the key one, to me. What I see in fantasy fiction (or in any fiction, or in reality) is completely incompatible with a balanced, closed game system. Thus, to create an engaging rpg experience, we must have an unbalanced, open system, and have people who understand this and choose not to try to "win" D&D. When I see people who treat D&D as a competitive game, rather than as an rpg, I either change their minds, or get rid of them. Not everyone has that capacity, or that luxury, I understand.

    My guess is that one or more of these things are present in people's games who suffer from this issue. Ahnehnois, there are people out there who have just as much experience as you or I (or more)...just as much analytical ferocity as you or I (or more)...and they suffer these issues. Dismiss their experience and fail to address their concerns at the hobby's peril.
    I don't dismiss them; I just don't think that this is the norm. D&D has been very successful for several decades and I find it implausible that the basic game is as fundamentally flawed as this line of reasoning suggests. D&D is a primitive game, filled with problems that need to be fixed, but I don't think the basic assumptions of the game (including what magic can do) are wrong or need to be changed.

    Personally, I would prefer a much more limited magic system where spells had huge costs, as well as a deeper and better nonmagical combat system, albeit for different reasons.

    I desperately want this hobby to persist through the next few generations so I desperately would like all lobbies to be able to play the game of their choice within the framework of a unified ruleset (if possible). I hope we're on the same team.
    Hopefully, the hobby will grow and diversify. Whether that will happen under one brand and one set of rules I don't know, but it would be nice to see the hobby move back in that direction. If we could have a universal, customizablke ruleset that would be nice, but I'm also a realist and thus skeptical of WotC's ability to get back on track. I suspect the hobby will persist, one way or another.
    "Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose"

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