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Thread: Another D&D Next Playtest Survey
Tuesday, 24th July, 2012, 05:24 PM #131
The Great Druid (Lvl 17)
When "tone the power" down is such an obvious first step, and works even in the ruleset with the most caster issues, then it becomes fairly clear that any solution that doesn't tone the power down has got a lot more ground to cover by way of compensation. Not saying that it can't be done some other way, but the solutions for "full powered casters" in 3E terms and "toned down casters" otherwise are necessarily callibrated differently.
I did rather like the local solution our group adopted in high school, put rather bluntly by the halfing rogue to the wizard late in one particular adventure:
Rogue: Hey Wizard, you get the torch and go down the hall to see if you set off any traps.
Wizard: Why me? I've got the fewest hit points!
Rogue: You are also nearly out of spells, and have a low Str. So you can't carry much treasure out. Until we get out, you are basically a glorified link boy that we don't even need to pay.
Wizard: So I'm expendable?
After that, the wizards always held back a few spells for some reason ...
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Tuesday, 24th July, 2012, 05:27 PM #132
The Great Druid (Lvl 17)
Tuesday, 24th July, 2012, 05:29 PM #133
Thaumaturgist (Lvl 9)
I can see where you are coming from, but it hasn't been my experience always. While I do agree with you a little. I am playing Pathfinder right now so that shapes my responses.
True they can at the price of using up a spell every time they take the rogues place which can eat up a lot of spells in a hurry. Now teleport spells I do agree with you on.2) Knock, fly, teleport, teleport without error: these spells bypass difficulties and completely change the way the game is played. I'd like to keep them but move them to rituals that can be accessed by everybody willing to pay the cost. So the wizard can "replace" the rogue if necessary by spending more resources, but any other class can do it too.
Has never been a big problem for us, they don't last that long. They are used in fights a lot but that's about it. Ever so often one is used for something else but not to often.3) Summoning: this is a real killer. You can use summoned creatures to trigger traps, to fight for you, and in many other ways. The more monsters are added to the list the more you risk loosing control.
I do agree in 3E these where a problem, I feel Pathfinder has fixed them.4) Polymorph/shapechange: once again here every monster added can add more trouble
Yes the scry/teleport/nuke attack is a problem at high level. But more due to teleport which i will get to.5) Scrying: scrying magic was the root of the scry/teleport/nuke tactics I've seen in 3e. When every vaguely important person in the world is lead-lining their homes you start to understand that something is going the wrong way.
One of my PCs even started a company that was protecting rooms and houses with lead panels...
The final group some can be a issue sometimes. The big spells that I and my group think can still be a issue are some divination spells(to easy to gather information, removes mysteries from the game) and teleport. divination our fix was just not to make them 100% reliable. Like zone of truth, give the target a save each round, caster knows the target likely told the truth most of the time but maybe not all of it. Things like that we found helped a lot, then teleport the easy fix is, you can only teleport to places you have physically been to before.6) Other stuff: Evard's Black tentacles, wish, forcecage, stoneskin
So I agree with you that some spells can still be a problem. But I think the way they need to be addressed in 5E is just to have them tweaked, not removed from the game.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Tuesday, 24th July, 2012, 06:56 PM #134
Tuesday, 24th July, 2012, 07:44 PM #135
1) all wizards must choose a favored school
2) spells of non-favored schools are available but considered complex. The wizard needs a lot more time and effort to wrestle these unfamiliar or strangely natured spell formulas into memory.
2) any complex spell presents obstacles to the wizard, such as:
i) can only be recharged/memorized once per week or after a full day of meditation or after every full moon or other triggers/prerequisites
ii) may take 1 full round or 1 full minute or more to cast
iii) may require expensive or hard to find spell components, cost hit points (ie., stamina), etc.
3) put the problematic spells into a 'utility/exploration' school and/or sub-school that would generally not be favored by adventurer wizards (but non-adventuring scholarly sages in their dusty towers can do so)
In this way, the specialist Utility Wizard is labelled as 'exploration solver' or whatnot, not the individual spells. The problematic spells are nerfed mostly by accessibility or frequency of usage.
Last edited by Underman; Tuesday, 24th July, 2012 at 07:48 PM.
Tuesday, 24th July, 2012, 09:18 PM #136
Scout (Lvl 6)
Click the link.
Click the glasses.
In any case at certain levels SOME things JUST shouldnt be trouble for the PCs anymore. OH look it's a raging river.....we'll fly across. Things like the natural environment should rarely be obstacles anymore. The PCs spend more time dealing with adventure sites than traveling to them.
Simple murder mystery or 'terrorist' plot? Pah.... Maybe at low levels in any case divinations rarely provide direct answers.
When you can cast 5th level spells you are about 9nth or 10th level. Any creature of 11th level or above, or with a cr of 11 or above is "Legendary" in nature as are it's exploits. Your characters are on top of the world well before 20th level and any spell castable by characters of that level is legendary magic, because the PCs and their adversaries are among the few that can use them.
Also: no one, not even a wizard can "beat the game" because the game isnt beatable. To be beatable, the must be a win condition. How do win at LIFE (not that one) itself?
Tuesday, 24th July, 2012, 09:35 PM #137
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
Keep in mind, we're shooting for a game that's D&D at its core, not some generic RPG engine that has D&D in one of its modules. And many of those spells have been part of D&D's core for over 30 years. The fact that we've seen play styles evolve that have leveraged the bejeezus out of them doesn't mean they should be isolated, but the things we've learned should inform how we present the implications of those spells to the DM.
Last edited by billd91; Tuesday, 24th July, 2012 at 09:39 PM.
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
Tuesday, 24th July, 2012, 11:23 PM #138
Wednesday, 25th July, 2012, 08:23 AM #139
I agree the Knock spell (at least used for mundane doors) is a "me too!" ability, a metagame-informed construct that I don't think is organic to the fiction, and a legacy from 1e.
OTOH, if the wizard circumvented locked portals by teleporting 10 feet to the other side of the door or warping the wood or whatnot, it would not be a blatant example of a "me too!" class ability, because that kind of magic is inherent to the wizard anyway and the wizard is 'wasting' magic to do what the missing rogue should have done more easily/organically.
Few stories need to force adventurers to open locked doors. There's always a window to break through or other options or not open the locked door just because its there.It strikes me as no more or less essential that a class without a rogue can open locked portals.
Wednesday, 25th July, 2012, 09:17 AM #140