D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

Libramarian

Adventurer
I quibble over "blames" as what is done to the person here, but that is just a quibble ...

I'm not sure that you can apply one word to this phenomenon, because I'm not sure that it is one thing that causes it, when it is caused, or that it is consistent. Plus, no doubt there are elements of human psychology, brain patterns, etc. here that we aren't equipped to answer.

Consider the esoteric case of metre in poetry, for example. It's known that iambic pentameter (five pairs of stressed/unstressed sounds) generally is perceived by most English-speaking natives to have a richer/stronger/better/pleasing sound compared to iambic tetrameter (four pairs of stressed/unstressed sounds). It's an objective fact that if you do a controlled survey of native English-speaking natives, you will find this strong preference. You'll get a non-trivial number of people who will report that iambic tetrameter is "sing-songy" or something similar.

Why this is so? I don't think anyone really knows, though I'm sure people have written guesses on it. The why is very subjective. Someone might be tempted to think that humans just like one better than the other. Yet, this isn't true, either. Reportedly, it does not hold for medieval French verse, which is often in iambic tetrameter, and does not generally produce a sing-songy vibe. Reportedly, there are similar differences in other languages. So the observation is something specific to those fluent in English--and usually adults, as children often like the sing-songy stuff.

So we can easily contrive fictional examples that will be more or less jarring, implausible, etc. to a wide swath of people, but trying to understand why is difficult. My objection to the (non-ranting, non-edition warring) parts of the TA essay has never been that it wasn't after something worth seeking, but that it settles for a too simplistic answer. Why does X rip Bob out of immersion completely, Larry a little, and Shemp not at all? That's a good question.

Edit: What I'm talking about here is the difference between characterizing a thing versus a tighter, more explanatory definition. If you want to characterize what this thing is in a word or phase, I think you can't beat "immersion breaking" or "breaks immersion". It's true, unobjectionable, clear, etc. If you want a word or phrase that explains why it happens concisely and objectively, I don't think there is any such animal.
The concept of disassociated mechanics is not a theory of immersion. It's a type of mechanic that has a notable correlation to people complaining about loss of immersion. It's analogous to iambic pentameter verse in your example, not your theoretical explanation of the effect that iambic pentameter verse has on most English speakers.

The concept of dissociated mechanics is extremely useful to the designers of 5e, who want to please people who complain about loss of immersion (and they have mentioned the concept a few times in blogs/articles). A full explanation of the effect is not required for that purpose.

I think some of those who want to ban the concept really just want to shut out the influence of those who value immersion on the design of 5e. i.e. they're analogous to people who don't get the richer/pleasing effect from iambic pentameter verse, so they want to destroy the concept to make it more likely that poets will use different styles. That would be pretty unfair. Everyone's desires should have a chance to be articulated. People should focus on articulating their own preferences better rather than attacking others' ability to articulate theirs.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I don't understand why this discussion keeps being reframed as if those who play 4e don't experience or value immersion. When there are already multiple posts upthread refuting this particular presupposition.
 

Hussar

Legend
Libramarian said:
I think some of those who want to ban the concept really just want to shut out the influence of those who value immersion on the design of 5e. i.e. they're analogous to people who don't get the richer/pleasing effect from iambic pentameter verse, so they want to destroy the concept to make it more likely that poets will use different styles. That would be pretty unfair. Everyone's desires should have a chance to be articulated. People should focus on articulating their own preferences better rather than attacking others' ability to articulate theirs.

Wait, what?

Since when has anyone who has disagreed with the idea of dissociated mechanics made any claims that clearly associated mechanics are bad and should not be included in the game? When has anyone, even when questioning whether a specific mechanic (such as HP, for example) is associated or not questioned whether or not that mechanic should be in the game at all.

OTOH, the critics of so called dissociated mechanics have spent the past couple of years pretty constantly trying to tell all and sundry that these kinds of mechanics must not be included in any future D&D product, that the inclusion of these mechanics makes the game so unpalatable that they won't even consider playing it, EVEN IF THE MECHANICS IN QUESTION AREN'T USED.

The simple presence of dissociated mechanics in the rules is apparently enough to turn some people away from the game.

So, no, you're not right here. It's not about shutting down criticism. Someone doesn't like mechanics that pull them out of immersion. Great. But, until it can be articulated HOW that disruption is happening in some situations and not others, it becomes pretty pointless to blanket remove all mechanics that someone claims disrupts immersion.

Going back to JC's example of wearing a blanket but not feeling hotter. Ok, fine. But, he goes further and tells everyone else that they must wear a blanket or they are wrong, that not having a blanket means they aren't really sleeping in a bed, then I'm going to have to see some pretty compelling evidence as to how wearing a blanket doesn't make me hotter.

That's what this is all about. The dissociated mechanics crowd is trying to draw a nice sharp border around D&D to exclude mechanics that they don't like. Never mind that it's pretty easy to simply not use these mechanics and that's what the whole "modular" approach seems to be about, but, as this thread has shown, multiple people will write off the whole game regardless, if these mechanics make it into the game.

I asked a while ago about the 5e Fighter's Combat Superiority dice (or whatever they're called). They're dissociated. Flat out. Why does tripping someone mean that I cannot block an attack from someone else, but stabbing them is okay? If I spend my combat dice to trip a target, it doesn't refresh until the beginning of my next turn. Thus, I cannot reduce damage until the beginning of my next turn. If I just stabbed the guy, then I could.

But, we don't see people up in arms about how this mechanic is dissociated and breaks immersion. From what I've seen, most people seem to think this is a really, really cool mechanic and it's getting pretty solid reviews.

So, obviously, the dissociation of a mechanic has pretty much nothing to do with anything. It's just sloppy short hand for "I don't like it". Might as well just call it video-gamey for all the meaning it actually brings to the discussion.
 

pemerton

Legend
I asked a while ago about the 5e Fighter's Combat Superiority dice (or whatever they're called). They're dissociated. Flat out. Why does tripping someone mean that I cannot block an attack from someone else, but stabbing them is okay? If I spend my combat dice to trip a target, it doesn't refresh until the beginning of my next turn. Thus, I cannot reduce damage until the beginning of my next turn. If I just stabbed the guy, then I could.

But, we don't see people up in arms about how this mechanic is dissociated and breaks immersion.
In reply to this, you should anticipate lengthy explanations about how damage rolls, hit points, the intiative sequence and action economy, etc, are all a complex abstraction of the process of fighting something. And the "can't trip and parry but can stab and parry" models some part or other of this complex simulation.

Unlike being able to do Rain of Blows once per encounter, of course!
 

Balesir

Adventurer
The concept of disassociated mechanics is not a theory of immersion. It's a type of mechanic that has a notable correlation to people complaining about loss of immersion. It's analogous to iambic pentameter verse in your example, not your theoretical explanation of the effect that iambic pentameter verse has on most English speakers.
If that is so, could you please give me a clear definition of what actually makes a mechanic "dissociated"? Because all I have seen so far are examples that seem not to differ meaningfully from examples that are "not dissociated" and vague rambles about "believability" (which is apparently not linked to "realism", as such, but to some sort of undefined genre appropriateness or something).

If "dissociated mechanics" are really like iambic pentameter, presumably someone can tell us what they are - preferably in one short paragraph (as was done for iambic pentameter and tertrameter together just a page or two ago).
 

pemerton

Legend
All versions of D&D are strongly G/s or S/g, with 2e arguably being the most dysfunctional with its strong narrative desires but no mechanical narrative support. (What does it say about me that 2e is my favorite ed?:uhoh:)
I won't judge you harshly for your dislike of a dysfunctional game - I continue to have a very very soft spot for Rolemaster (and it's offshoots like HARP) after GMing it for nearly 20 years, but Rolemaster suffers from obvious, deep, and perhaps ineliminable, design flaws (much deeper than its issues with search-and-handling time for action resolution, which is simply about acquired taste).

As you know, I think that 4e is the best version of D&D for running a vanilla narrativist gonzo fantasy game, because of (i) its thematically tighter story elements, and (ii) its focus on scene-based play, and (iii) (as part of (ii)) its jettisoning of all the fiddly resource management aspects of classic D&D that make scene-based play difficult if not impossible.

3e emerged in a world where what we now call character optimization was derided (common, but derided) with pejoratives like "munchkin" and "minmaxer". As with any edition of D&D, they weren't totally absent, but they were certainly not the main thrust of people's concerns.
In my mind, I associate that "anti-munchkin" attitude with the weaknesses of AD&D 2nd edition relative to the purposes it was ostensibly aimed at - namely, quasi-Gygaxian gamist character build and advancement rules ostensibly in service of "story"-oriented play.

Whereas my feeling is - if you want to avoid character optimisation, choose a system that doesn't permit it (I'm thinking, for example, of HeroWars/Quest).

3e seemed to discount "event" based esteem over "status"-based esteem. "I am now X" was usually more important than "I did X."

<snip>

prestige classes were a totally new idea. The focus was on the development of a character expression. They added a zillion fiddly bits like feats, skill points, and the prestige class system. The functional purpose of all those fiddly bits was (I feel) the Simulationist desire to "live the dream" and its need to defend against creeping Gamism (see below).

<snip>

One odd (and often self-defeating) result of this focus was often an inability in 3e to play the character you envisioned right from the start. Even the prestige system reflects the idea that getting to play your concept was a goal of the game. You want your character to be X?...wait 6 levels and you can be close. You had to "earn" the right to be what you wanted (yet another hidden aspect of the design process that subtly favored the caster over the martial character.)
This is a very interesting feature of 3E that I hear about from time to time, and can see myself when I look at the rules, but that doesn't seem to get as much attention as (perhaps) it deserves.

There were plenty of concepts (especially martial character concepts) that you just couldn't do in 3e until you'd snagged enough feats to pull it off without living in penalty hell (if you could do it at all.) Even then, some of them were barely workable.

That's the cost of a Simulationist system (at least within the realm of D&Dness.) From a Sim point of view, you can look at...oh a dual-whip-wielding non-lethal attack specialist, and you have to break it down into all its little fiddly bits (feats, skills, proficiencies, whatever.) Since 3e dribbles these out over the levels, some concepts just have to wait. '

<snip>

I've played other systems that ditch Simulation entirely. This can give them tremendous advantages in the "express a character concept" realm. In some of my favorites, you could play that expert dual-whip-wielding non-lethal attack specialist right next to the deadly veteran and the farmboy just picking up a sword for the first time...and they'd all be "balanced" and participating equally.
I think that this whole "you have to earn the right to play the character you want to play" thing is somewhat unique to D&D. In classic D&D, where getting a truly viable PC (especially a magic-user) is itself a goal of play, it made some sense.

Retaining it despite the cultural transition from Gygaxian gamism to the high-concept simulationism of 2nd ed AD&D and early 3E (as you are describing it) just seems strange. And tending to promote not only dysfunctional rulesets, but (in my view) somewhat dysfunctional play, based heavily around GM force and dispensation (as per the Ron Edwards quote that you posted).

The 4e categories of Heroic, Paragon and Epic seem to me an attempt to reconcile player protagonism with D&D levelling, by making your "character identity trajectory" a given background to play, rather than a goal of play as such: you don't have to earn it (from the game or the GM) - it will come to you, over time, simply by turning up and playing. (Hence, I think, why some people criticise 4e as "player entitlement" or "munchkinism" or "overpowered" - criticisms for which I personally have little sympathy.)

That does, of course, give rise to the question "what is the goal of 4e play, then?" I don't think the rulebooks for 4e are completely clear on this.

I haven't yet got a sense, yet, of how D&Dnext is going to handle this sort of stuff: what is the goal of play, and how does character development and expression fit into that goal.
 

Shadeydm

First Post
I asked a while ago about the 5e Fighter's Combat Superiority dice (or whatever they're called). They're dissociated. Flat out. Why does tripping someone mean that I cannot block an attack from someone else, but stabbing them is okay? If I spend my combat dice to trip a target, it doesn't refresh until the beginning of my next turn. Thus, I cannot reduce damage until the beginning of my next turn. If I just stabbed the guy, then I could.

But, we don't see people up in arms about how this mechanic is dissociated and breaks immersion. From what I've seen, most people seem to think this is a really, really cool mechanic and it's getting pretty solid reviews.

I sincerely hope its a module and not a default assumption we shall see.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
In my mind, I associate that "anti-munchkin" attitude with the weaknesses of AD&D 2nd edition relative to the purposes it was ostensibly aimed at - namely, quasi-Gygaxian gamist character build and advancement rules ostensibly in service of "story"-oriented play.

Quite possibly. Towards the mid-late 1990's everyone seemed to want to declare their game "story" oriented, but I can't think of any major rules systems of that era that I feel particularly support that play. Lots of rulebooks played plenty of lip-service to it, but were basically hot messes of S/g or (more rarely) G/s like D&D.

Whereas my feeling is - if you want to avoid character optimisation, choose a system that doesn't permit it (I'm thinking, for example, of HeroWars/Quest).

I tend to agree, but the thing is...there's a decent number of people playing D&D who want character optimization to be a part of the game. At least where I'm playing, its hard to get a story-intense group going.

I think that this whole "you have to earn the right to play the character you want to play" thing is somewhat unique to D&D. In classic D&D, where getting a truly viable PC (especially a magic-user) is itself a goal of play, it made some sense.

Retaining it despite the cultural transition from Gygaxian gamism to the high-concept simulationism of 2nd ed AD&D and early 3E (as you are describing it) just seems strange. And tending to promote not only dysfunctional rulesets, but (in my view) somewhat dysfunctional play, based heavily around GM force and dispensation (as per the Ron Edwards quote that you posted).

I think so. Playing "Narrative" style is so intuitive that people seem to do it without too much prompting by the rules (if they're going to do it.) Which makes writing decent rules for it very difficult. IMO, that's why so many heavy "Narrative" games are very short and sweet. You don't have to be rules-light to be Narrativist, but it sure seems to help.

That does, of course, give rise to the question "what is the goal of 4e play, then?" I don't think the rulebooks for 4e are completely clear on this.

I haven't yet got a sense, yet, of how D&Dnext is going to handle this sort of stuff: what is the goal of play, and how does character development and expression fit into that goal.

Those are interesting questions. I'd almost hate to be a Designer for D&D...you want to make a cool, interesting new game...but then you have this heavy necklace of sacred cattle to hold you back. So far, they seem to be trying to answer with self-referential nonsense, "make the best D&D possible", "hit all those cultural notes", etc.
 

Hussar

Legend
I sincerely hope its a module and not a default assumption we shall see.

Judging from the Penny Arcade interviews going on right now on the WOTC board, I think that this is going to be the default fighter. I suppose, if you wanted to make it a module, you could just hard wire it to a single effect. Ie. the fighter uses his combat dice as extra damage with every attack. So, as the fighter goes up levels, he doesn't gain extra attacks, he just gains extra damage.

Wouldn't take too much to work it out. Considering the flattening of monster hit points, it would effectively make the fighter very, very similar to a Post Unearthed Arcana 1e fighter, or a 2e fighter, where those fighters vs a single target were pretty much best there was at making things stop breathing.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
Those are interesting questions. I'd almost hate to be a Designer for D&D...you want to make a cool, interesting new game...but then you have this heavy necklace of sacred cattle to hold you back. So far, they seem to be trying to answer with self-referential nonsense, "make the best D&D possible", "hit all those cultural notes", etc.

Well, if they want to make a "cool, interesting new game," they should do it and quit forcing D&D into a mold it's not going to fit. I love new games. Hell, I've played dozens of games. But when I sit down to play D&D - or Monopoly - for that matter, I expect a certain game experience. I haven't gotten that with a WOTC version of D&D.
 

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