D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

In all this discussion, I think what gets missed is that the exact nature of the mechanics is not the important thing, your personal preferences are what is important. You liking/disliking a rule or system is far more significant than why. Why really isn't important outside of rationalizing your preferences to others or asserting the superiority of your preferences over that of others.
 

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Imaro

Legend
Let me attempt to clarify Hussar and pemerton's statement here. Unfortunately, I think you are inferring a bit of "Zero-Sum" and "Mutually Exclusive" within their statements where they are not intimating as much.

It appears to me that they are merely saying:

- Players sometimes (rarely? less than a majority? who knows?) make decisions for their PCs whereby "cool within genre expectations" trumps "pragmatic within M.O of a living breathing human expectations" for the sake of interesting, dynamic fiction.
- For a real-world, pragmatic person who (by nature) makes immediate, cost/benefit analysis decisions even when faced with fight or flight impulse, "caution-to-the-wind" is anathema.
- Therefore, sometimes the Player to PC relationship is disassociated on this metagame, decision-making level...for the sake of interesting, dynamic fiction.

Nowhere are they saying:

- You cannot have interesting, dynamic fiction without this "Metagame, pragmatism-defying, caution-to-the-wind, Cool Now" approach. Its just that, in some cases, it may be the most expedient means toward "Cool Now." You can have plenty of "Cool Now" by being in character and through process simulation. They're just saying that "sometimes" people do not follow that formula of actor stance and process simulation to achieve it.
- Further (I think...could be wrong here), they are saying that players may not do this willfully (sometimes)...they may be completely unaware that this is their M.O. when it manifests.

Carry on.

But if I am approaching from the view of my character... he is a persona in the genre we are playing in. Having actor stance doesn't necessitate that you approach it from the view of someonme in our world... So I'm unsure how genre plays into it at all

EDIT: As an example, most people in the real world avoid dangerous obstacles. However, if I am choosing to play an adventurer in D&D... then part of my characterization is automatically that I will face dangerous obstacles... does tthis fact now push me into author stance?
 
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Despite the fact that we disagree I applaud this post. We can't reach any sort of consensus about anything until both sides understand the other side. So I appreciate your point of view and honesty on this matter.

I agree that for many people the dissociation between the player and the character is not a great concern. I can guess that this is true for a number of reasons. That is their experience. They play more casually and they think of it as a game just like monopoly. Now I'm not saying the game IS monopoly or that the game IS like a board game. I'm just saying that your commitment level and attitude is similar. That's all.

For me I've just always been the kind of DM and player who really loves a well detailed and immersive world. I like getting to the character. So perhaps this is why I see things my way. I'm not saying you can't enjoy a detailed world either. Just saying how I perceive maybe I came to my own preferences.

I'm not sure what the ultimate game solution is other than try to keep in mind people's preferences when doing design and when a particular goal is achievable with different approaches seek the least offensive one for all parties involved.

Possibly it would help to explain what dumps me out of the narrative and what keeps me there. And to me the logic matters a whole lot less than the results - especially as combat is in some way an abstraction anyway.

AD&D with its one minute combat turns dumps me hard. Combat is a fast, dangerous, and rapidly unfolding situation to which adaption is essential - and my PC only gets to reassess once every minute? I'm instantly gone (and never mind quite how tough this makes kobolds to kill - killing a kobold a minute is fast work whereas killing a dragon in a minute in 4e is incredibly slow). Minute long combat rounds are therefore anathema for any sort of visualisation to me. I'm therefore out for anything except PC as pawn stance. Too much is going on which I can't react to.

6 seconds on the other hand is a little long for an OODA loop but not very - it's about the right order of magnitude. Near enough to the regularity with which I assess and rethink as opposed to execute to be believable. A bit too slow, but not entirely ridiculous especially as we're zoomed out in the game rules to a distance of five foot squares. It gives me time but means that combat hasn't passed in the blink of an eye.

My next test is whether I can actually behave like myself in combat using my reenactment experience. As a sword and shield fighter, I bully people. My shield, more than most peoples, is a second weapon. Either straight and coming forward right in their face to blind them or, worse yet, edge on and cutting their sword arm and head off from the rest of their body. The first at the very least drives them back most of the time. And if I can't drive back people my size in open combat without either spending a feat (I haven't invested that much in it) or giving up an attack roll to do it (this really isn't a bull rush), I can't behave like myself in combat. I literally need something like Tide of Iron to be a default option to be able to behave as myself in combat.

Which isnt to say Tide of Iron and AEDU is the only possible way to do it, of course. The Hammer Hands stance is functionally equivalent. Either way without short distance forced movement as a default option I can't behave like myself. Which is a complete fail. 3.X non-casters throw me out because I simply don't have this level of flexibility to behave like myself. It's ... viable. But leads to the martial classes standing there trading blows - which is not what I want to do or do on open skirmishy combat myself. I don't have the options or the tactics, so I don't feel anything like as in control. I'm responding rather than, as I actually try to do, creating the chances.

Then we come to encounter powers. As a 4e encounter power mine is Passing Attack. It's using the blinding effect of my shield, described above, (or just a blow - I don't need a shield to do it) to distract the guy I'm fighting so I can disengage and engage with someone else from an angle they weren't expecting. About once a fight when I'm not an early casualty (I never claimed to be that skilled) is about right - and Passing Attack is a really good example because if it misses there's no functional difference from an At Will attack. At Will + Encounter therefore fits me a lot better than just At Wills. Now it's not a process-sim, but the fighter PC I've designed behaves the way I do in a fight. The mechanics therefore allow me to reflect the person I am.

For an actual process-sim I'd need to zoom in. I can't use my various tricks that are effectively Passing Attack when my opponents are shoulder to shoulder; it's the slightly unexpected angle that makes it work - but I can when they are trying to circle me. However combat squares in 4e are five foot. If two people are adjacent this means that they can be anywhere from shoulder to shoulder (when I can't) to about six feet apart (when I might be able to). 1/encounter feels like it's about at the same level of zoom as the rest of what's mandated about the battle.

Now if you want to try to associate the encounter powers for Martial characters by using a Bo9S Crusader style recharge mechanism for encounter powers, or even a 13th Age style random rider my only argument is going to be that for me this adds needless complexity. But if it's what you need for your immersion to happen then I'd be absolutely fine hacking a 4e class or two to enable this. (Hell, I'd be delighted - the more playing the merrier). But if what you want is for me to lose my encounter powers you've just taken away my ability for a PC to behave the way either I or a lot of fictional characters I want to emulate do. And thereby taken away a lot of my immersion. And if you want to force me to play what is to me a needlessly more complicated class by forcing the Crusader recharge mechanic on them I'm going to be slightly annoyed.
 

Hussar

Legend
Firstly, I don't know about others, but I've just been half speculating, half musing, half analyzing my own likes/dislikes. Although I have some opinions, I didn't go so far as to say anything about "bad" 4e mechanics. Why you are so frustrated? Stop pulling your hair, take a deep calming breath, and when you're no longer feeling antagonized by my speculations, then we can talk :) (Oh, also, in response to your "Why, why?" what could I possibly say that hasn't already been said a thousand times in a thousand different ways?)

It's frustrating because it seems so arbitrary. It's okay sometimes, but not others? It's perfectly fine, so long as it doesn't bother your sense of disbelief, but, once it bothers you, it must be bad and bother everyone? That seems to be Forever Slayer's and Emerikol's position. It bothers him, therefore it must bother everyone and it's bad.

It's frustrating because, despite circling around this particular rabbit hole for years, no one can really give a decent explanation for why its bad, other than, "I don't like it".

Didn't realize there was a difference between being "in character" and doing something cool. I thought the whole idea of being in character was cool.

I'm not really following where this is going.

If you choose to have your character do X and X is not in keeping with the character that you have created, then there is a difference between being "in character" and doing something cool. A hard bitten mercenary who is only in it for himself deciding to swing from the chandelier because you, the player, think it's cool is a good example of the difference.

In his original post, which is displayed below... Hussar makes no such distinction... He assumes that this action is "ridiculous" (which is one of those assumptions I was speaking to)... when in fact it would depend on PC motivation, characterization and even build choices as to whether it is a ridiculous choice to swing on a chandelier or not. If I'm a Gambit-esque character with an 18 in Dex, trained in acrobatics, with a character trait that adds +2 to acrobatics and skill focus in acrobatics... how is attempting such a maneuver "ridiculously dangerous"??





I'm not arguing that anyone claimed actor stance doesn't exist. I am arguing that I don't find this happens often. I'm sorry but I don't see players often attempt things they know their characters suck at because it might be cool, if they pull it off. IME, they tend to build their characters (both mechanically and personality wise) to do well at and gravitate towards the things they find to be cool.

EDIT:*Shrug* I guess you could infer that we build our characters around the "cool" things we want to do in game.

That's because you've completely subverted the example. Sure, if the character is built around swinging from the chandelier, then doing so would not be out of character. But, let's be honest here, not every character is built that way. And, I'd go so far as to say, many characters aren't built that way.
 

Hussar

Legend
But if I am approaching from the view of my character... he is a persona in the genre we are playing in. Having actor stance doesn't necessitate that you approach it from the view of someonme in our world... So I'm unsure how genre plays into it at all

EDIT: As an example, most people in the real world avoid dangerous obstacles. However, if I am choosing to play an adventurer in D&D... then part of my characterization is automatically that I will face dangerous obstacles... does tthis fact now push me into author stance?

And, you're absolutely right. It doesn't necessitate the different stance. However, in many cases, players will adopt different stances simply because what they want to do and what the character would want to do are at odds.

In this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/174075-good-idea-pull-lever-dungeon.html over half the players have their character pull the lever. It's almost never a good idea to do so, but, at least half of us do it anyway. And, it's almost always just to see what happens.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
It's frustrating because, despite circling around this particular rabbit hole for years, no one can really give a decent explanation for why its bad, other than, "I don't like it".

Ultimately, isn't that enough of a reason to reject a set of game rules and advocate for another? That someone doesn't like them? I think it is. It's great to be able to voice reasons for why you do or don't like something, because I think that means you put some thought to them. But the underlying dislike won't change no matter how thoroughly you explain your opinions. Nor will the additional exposition be likely to sway people who like those rules based on their own reasons.

If you choose to have your character do X and X is not in keeping with the character that you have created, then there is a difference between being "in character" and doing something cool. A hard bitten mercenary who is only in it for himself deciding to swing from the chandelier because you, the player, think it's cool is a good example of the difference.

<snip>

That's because you've completely subverted the example. Sure, if the character is built around swinging from the chandelier, then doing so would not be out of character. But, let's be honest here, not every character is built that way. And, I'd go so far as to say, many characters aren't built that way.

Defining a character always limits the palette of options available to you because some things that might be possible to do are simply not going to be in character. How strong that limit is, a hard limit or a soft limit, depends a lot on the play style of the player and how he approaches immersion in the character. That play style may or may not clash with his fellow players at the table, so a bit of caution is advised when treating it as a soft limit. You might be annoying your fellow players.

I might also say that if you find yourself overriding that soft limit a lot, it may be time to revisit the initial character definition. It may not be a good fit. You can probably lessen the friction between the things you have the character do and the character's conception.
 

Underman

First Post
EDIT: As an example, most people in the real world avoid dangerous obstacles. However, if I am choosing to play an adventurer in D&D... then part of my characterization is automatically that I will face dangerous obstacles... does tthis fact now push me into author stance?
That's the beauty of that solution. You choose a character concept that justifies dangerous risk taking [author stance at character creation] furthered by the DM designing adventures accordingly [director stance] allowing you to be in actor stance for most of the adventure at least for that perspective.

It's frustrating because, despite circling around this particular rabbit hole for years, no one can really give a decent explanation for why its bad, other than, "I don't like it".
It's none of my business in your case, and by all means, you can circle around that rabbit hole for more years to come, but maybe the problem isn't what you think it is :) In situations like this, I just agree to disagree. Otherwise, ya it would be a continued source of frustration if I worried about what why people liked stuff I didn't (horror movies come to mind, not to mention the usual politics and all that real-life stuff we're not allowed to discuss).
 

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
It's frustrating because it seems so arbitrary. It's okay sometimes, but not others? It's perfectly fine, so long as it doesn't bother your sense of disbelief, but, once it bothers you, it must be bad and bother everyone? That seems to be Forever Slayer's and Emerikol's position. It bothers him, therefore it must bother everyone and it's bad.

It's frustrating because, despite circling around this particular rabbit hole for years, no one can really give a decent explanation for why its bad, other than, "I don't like it".



If you choose to have your character do X and X is not in keeping with the character that you have created, then there is a difference between being "in character" and doing something cool. A hard bitten mercenary who is only in it for himself deciding to swing from the chandelier because you, the player, think it's cool is a good example of the difference.

Paragraph 1: Way off base there partner. I know what may not bother me may bother someone else and vice versa but that's not the issue here. What is and what isn't cool is purely subjective.

Paragraph 2: A mercenary can encompass a wide variety of people so I'm not so sure what would be odd about him swinging from a chandelier. At the same time, if it doesn't fit the personality of my character then I won't do it. If I am playing a Raistlin Majere type of mage then don't expect me to go swinging from a chandelier any time soon.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
It appears to me that they are merely saying:

- Players sometimes (rarely? less than a majority? who knows?) make decisions for their PCs whereby "cool within genre expectations" trumps "pragmatic within M.O of a living breathing human expectations" for the sake of interesting, dynamic fiction.
- For a real-world, pragmatic person who (by nature) makes immediate, cost/benefit analysis decisions even when faced with fight or flight impulse, "caution-to-the-wind" is anathema.
- Therefore, sometimes the Player to PC relationship is disassociated on this metagame, decision-making level...for the sake of interesting, dynamic fiction.
I think it's the second step -where you describe a particularly narrow personality type- where the objection from Imaro comes in. Yes, a "pragmatic person who (by nature) makes immediate, cost/benefit analysis decisions even when faced with fight or flight impulse" might act that way.

Neonchameleon also seemingly approaches Wizards from a similar viewpoint. If you're an adventurer, and your life is always on the line, then it's out-of-character to purposefully gimp yourself.

I'd argue that there are a lot of people that gimp themselves in real life for all kinds of reasons (usually because it's within their comfort zone, but also because it's their preference, or to uphold some type of ideal, etc.). And playing characters with that type of personality means that you might not be so inherently pragmatic (thus the references to Gambit), or you may be more themed (a fire wizard who prepares fire spells because he prefers them), etc.

Hussar, pemerton, and Neonchameleon have a point, but only insofar as certain personalities are concerned. Past that, however, the objection gets raised, because those claims start to lose steam.
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
This is an interesting biographical fact about you - there is a certain (in my view, somewhat vaguely defined) category of mechanics that spoils your game.

I'm glad I read this post because perhaps I understand the disconnect now for some of you.

Some guy wrote a blog post about a set of mechanics and called it dissociative mechanics. Why'd he use the word dissociative? Well dissociative X means X causes you to lose immersion. So now I get that people keep arguing that this or that is dissociative. I realize that for some people ANYTHING could in theory be dissociative. I am talking about the specific mechanical definition that was named "dissociative mechanics". You guys are just taking it to me generically - anything that breaks immersion. Even for me there are things beyond what I'm talking about here that cause me to lose immersion. I don't like martial healing but it doesn't qualify as a dissociative mechanic until it becomes a daily or encounter power.

So here is the confusion. I wrote my own blog on WOTC website called metagame dissonance. Maybe that would be a better title for specifically what I'm talking about. Other people have used the term plot coupon. None of these things are pejorative to me. They are an attempt to describe a mechanic that is disliked.

Here are some examples that perhaps will help...
1. Non-magical daily powers.
2. Non-magical encounter powers (stamina systems though could work)
3. Action Points (as defined in D&D 4e)
4. Fate Points
5. Luck Points
6. Hero Points

All of the above have things in common. They involve the Player choosing something for his character that the character would be unaware of.

These things are not plot coupons
1. Magical daily powers - because magic is defined as an inworld concept.
2. Magical encounter powers - ditto
3. Hit points - a character is aware of his overall well being which is the abstract concept of hit points. I agree though that this abstraction could dissociate some people but it would be the mechanic I'm talking about. It's not a plot coupon.
4. Armor Class - Again an abstraction. The armor probably is getting hit in some cases but no damage is done and that is counted as a miss. The character and the player though are both thinking the same things.


So maybe this will help our discussion. I just started using the dissociative mechanics term because that guy wrote his blog post long before I ever even started thinking about it. But if metagame dissonance or plot coupon is a better descriptor then I'm for it. I am definitely just wanting a name on this thing we discuss so I can refer to it.
 

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