D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Completely tangential, but the game with Rubicant (and Cecil, Rosa, Kain, etc.) was 4, wasn't it? Or are you making a point about the American vs Japanese naming convention for Final Fantasy I, II, III (or I, IV, VI in Japan, and now renamed to the Japanese convention in American releases)?
I explicitly said "not 4!" though! But yes, it was 4 in Japan, and 2 in the US. I grew up calling it "2", so I'm resistant to it being called "4" for that reason alone (or FF3 being called FF6, for example). I'm not sure which one is "right" to most people (probably "4"), but you're correct. As always, play what you like :)
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I explicitly said "not 4!" though! But yes, it was 4 in Japan, and 2 in the US. I grew up calling it "2", so I'm resistant to it being called "4" for that reason alone (or FF3 being called FF6, for example). I'm not sure which one is "right" to most people (probably "4"), but you're correct. As always, play what you like :)

Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page, the wording threw me a bit. (I don't think I've seen any "Call it by the American name!" sentiment since like 1998.) :)

Also, you're completely correct about that being one of the coolest boss fights ever.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It's something they could especially do with certain PC builds. If you're playing a Slayer always in the same stance (Poised Assault or Battle Guardian) or a charge spammer then yes you can and it works.
Well, sure, with a Slayer or an optimized build. I still wouldn't blame the DM for it - I suppose if I must afix 'blame,' it'd be on the system for the former and the player for the latter.

I just feel like DMs are getting dumped on a lot - accused of being 'bad' or in line to be over-burdened with duties on the theory they're 'good' enough to handle them. :shrug:
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
4e upon release stopped supporting a bunch of playstyles.
I've got a poll going asking what constitutes 'support,' because I think there's a big difference in what it means to different people, and that it's going to be a major stumbling block for 5e.

For instance, I've found that there are people who are convinced that support is a one-style-at-a-time thing. That is, a game can only support one style - maybe support one, and leave some others possible, but mostly one game, one style. The only thing 5e could do to 'support' multiple styles given that definition is provide modules and home-rule advice on how to customize the game into something that 'supports' a given style.

OTOH, there's also a lot of respondents for whom 'support' means that the game works smoothly under their style, even that other styles may be present without stepping on eachother. 5e faces different challenge with these players, because, while they're more accepting of other play styles, they expect to be able to sit down and play in their style, without having to customize the rules or even find similarly-minded individuals who can all agree to play in the same style. A merely balanced game could 'support' a lot of styles in that case.

Now, given the first definition of 'style,' 4e couldn't really have stopped supporting a /lot/ of styles, it would have just shifted from supporting one to supporting a different one. As to the alternative definition, 4e probably net added 'supported' styles, if, indeed, it stopped supporting any at all.

To continue, though, I think I need more concise, narrower definitions than 'support.' So, for my purposes, I'm going to avoid support, entirely. Instead, I'll use 'reward,' 'allow,' and 'impede.'

A system 'rewards' a style if playing in that style gives you meaningful (presumably mechanical) advantages over those who don't cleave to that style. If a system rewards several styles, but one of them more than another, I suppose I could say it 'over-rewards' that particular style. The opposite of 'rewarding' a style would be 'punishing' it, playing in the style puts you at a meaningful disadvantage relative to those who don't try to follow that style. But, it's all relative: reducing an over-rewarded style to merely rewarded is tantamount to punishing it, for instance.

A system 'allows' a style if it doesn't 'punish' the style (relative to others), and runs smoothly enough with one or more players using that style, even if other players are using different styles.

A system 'impedes' a style if it doesn't over-reward that style, and also doesn't run smoothly when that style is adopted.

Edit: as an aside, I'm going to add another category of 'support,' enabling: A system 'enables' a style when it punishes that style, but runs smoothly with it present along side other styles that are rewarded or over-rewarded relative to the enabled style. The style, then, is one in which being at a mechanical disadvantage is desirable - imagine a 'martyr' style.

So (finally), in reply, while I don't know how you meant 'support,' I'd say that 4e stopped (over-?)'rewarding' one or more styles, but ended up 'allowing' more. And, it still rewards some of the same styles, just to a lesser degree - the 5mwd being a prime example, if it can be considered a 'style.'

All we are asking is that 5e support our playstyle. I don't see anyone saying that they can't support your playstyle too.
There's definitely a lot of lines being drawn in a lot of sand - albeit, more so at the WotC boards than here. And we might not even know what some of those lines mean. What is a playstyle? (I'm starting to wonder.) What is support? (I hope I've addressed that well enough for my own purposes, here.)

For 5e, the implications of the possible meanings of support I went into, above, is troubling, because it's not just a matter of 'supporting' a wide range of styles, but dealing with the difficulty that 'support' means very different things to different slivers of the fan-base, as well. While 'supporting' in the sense of 'allowing,' playstyles, for instance, a balanced 5e would 'support' a great many, in another sense it would be 'punishing' every style that had ever been 'supported' in the 'reward' sense, in the past.

I don't see a lot of hope. In theory, 5e core could be designed to support (allow) as many styles as possible. It would have to be inclusive (err on the side of including choices like classes, races, etc, regardless of where they came from), and it would have to be balanced. Modules could be used to support (reward) both traditional play styles, and styles that D&D hasn't historically supported (rewarded) as much. And, extensive advice could be extended to the DM, detailing how to modify the game to encourage (support in the sense of reward or even over-reward) or discourage (not support in the sense of punish) any given play style.

5e, even though early vaporware said it would allow players favoring different editions to all sit at the same table and still balance, doesn't appear to be trying to do that. Rather, fans are fighting over who gets supported (rewarded) in Core (currently it looks, to me, like fans of classic D&D have the inside track), and doing their best to get everyone else's preferences kicked to modules (preferably modules that might not get published until 6e is looking for playtesters).
 
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Lokiare

Banned
Banned
Riiiighhht. It affects the success probabilities of all characters... it's part of the underlying math of the game. You don't see it as a big change, cool your perogative... but it is a change in the math of the game and you claimed there wasn't one.

It was also done long before Essentials, try again though...
 

Lokiare

Banned
Banned
Not at all. If you tell me that the criteria for a new edition isn't objective but is instead decided by you and your group... well then that's the circular logic, isn't it? You've set up a situation where you define what's a new edition so whatever you say is one... is, and whatever you say isn't one... isn't. That's telling me there's no room for discussion because you have subjectively defined all criteria in the discussion... but then, if that's the way you decide what is or isn't a new edition... that should hold true for all groups.

I'm calling it circular logic because you were the one that stated that deciding for your group is what determines a new edition...

No one else but you said that...
 

This is a huge reason, IMHO, why such immersionists resist examination of what is going on. The more light you show on that rationalization, the less functional it becomes for them. That's a big part of the basis of my distinction between "deep" immersion and "shallow" immersion. I also speculate (wildly) that this is why there has been no definitive, clear explanation of deep immersion by one of its proponents. That would necessarily require the author to analyze what is going on in his head and at the table, later, after very carefully not doing so during the experience. I'm not saying that is impossible, but naturally it would be difficult.

This is a great post and I would XP you if I could. This is the exact process that I followed (those that know me well would say I'm a borderline obsessive over-analyzer) and it led, over time, to my disenfranchisement with rigid, unyielding adherence to Process-Sim and strict Actor's Stance. I suspect you've probably noticed my propensity to poke at the grotesque internal inconsistencies of the implied setting of the physical world of DnD. Those ruminations were my initial climb out of the rabbit hole.

I now readily acknowledge all of the "deep immersion" (as you like to put it) issues wrought by the internal inconsistencies buried within the model that Process Sim/Actor Stance/Implied Setting attempts to bring to life as a "pseudo-empirically-derived world." These inconsistencies no longer fray my mind. I would say that it has improved my gameplay from all angles; recognition and tolerance of the myriad issues with Process Sim/Actor Stance/Implied Setting and appreciation for how Narrative (Fiction First or Story Now)/Author & Director Stance game can allow me to in-fill the holes within the model or entirely gloss over them if I wish. The marriage of that recognition, tolerance and appreciation has improved my games, by my estimation, dramatically from both a satisfaction standpoint (my own and my groups) and from a genre emulation standpoint.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
No one else but you said that...
Actually, the order went like this:
Also, who decides what revisions are large enough to constitute a new edition?
I do. My group does.

Then we don't have anything else to discuss...

But if it's up to an individual group whether something is a new edition or not, when I or anyone else calls essentials a new edition, you shouldn't have anything to say about it since it's based on what an individual or group thinks is a new edition. ;)
Nice circular logic there...
Not at all. If you tell me that the criteria for a new edition isn't objective but is instead decided by you and your group... well then that's the circular logic, isn't it?
I'm calling it circular logic because you were the one that stated that deciding for your group is what determines a new edition...

No one else but you said that...
So, Imaro didn't make the claim initially, vagabundo did. He said if that's true then there's no way to determine what's universally a new edition (and no need to discuss it), you said it was circular logic, he said it wasn't, and you said it was because he defined it that way (when vagabundo did).

That clear this little side debate up? As always, play what you like :)
 


Well, sure, with a Slayer or an optimized build. I still wouldn't blame the DM for it - I suppose if I must afix 'blame,' it'd be on the system for the former and the player for the latter.

I just feel like DMs are getting dumped on a lot - accused of being 'bad' or in line to be over-burdened with duties on the theory they're 'good' enough to handle them. :shrug:

I don't blame either DM or system for it. I consider one of the failings of 4e on launch to be that it didn't have simple, spammy classes for people who like that sort of thing. I consider it a good option to have in the system as long as no one is trying to make me take it.
 

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