Top 5 RPGs--Spring 2012

darjr · Jul 25, 2012

ICv2 - Top 5 RPGs--Q3 2010

Dresden files was #5 in Q3 2010. I think Evil Hats numbers are public and for that quarter they sold something like 6,000. I'd have to hunt down the exact number and don't have time right now.

Edit: Here they are.

DFRPG:OW: 300+311+1285=1896
DFRPG:OW PDF: 2+178+1+86=267
DFRPG:YS: 407+348+1776=2531
DFRPG:YS PDF: 6+205+2+97=310

From here http://www.deadlyfredly.com/2010/10/evil-hat-sales-numbers-q3-2010/

But I know that q3 2010 numbers can be completely different from spring 2012

DaveMage · Jul 26, 2012

jsaving said:
But that isn't what I don't understand. What puzzles me is why so many people see 4e's sales performance as a referendum on whether 4e is a solid system, and think giving any credence whatsoever to underlying sales issues means admitting the game itself isn't any good. And it just doesn't mean that. Solid products underperform sales-wise all the time for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with product quality, and this may just be one of those times. It's also worth pointing out that numerous 4e design elements from themes to at-wills to backgrounds are being incorporated into Next, which wouldn't be happening if the system really were as bad as some 3e/Pathfinder fans claim.

4E has underperformed for many reasons that have nothing to do with whether it's a solid system. Instead...

1. It wasn't what a lot of D&D players want their D&D to be.
2. It spread out the "traditional" core rules over 3 player's handbooks, thus resulting in (potentially) a more costly buy-in.
3. Later it confused people with how to start the game (Player's Handbook? Red Box? Essentials? Starter Set? What do I buy?)
4. (Almost) Every year there were significant staff layoffs that likely affected design or business continuity.
5. It was plagued by a very, very poor marketing campaign at the start that alienated a significant portion of its fanbase.
6. Paizo/Pathfinder provided an alternative for those that were pretty happy with 3.5 (so no need/desire to go 4E)
7. Retro clones provided an alternative for those that were pretty happy with older editions.

Finally, the main reason for 4E at the time (per Ryan Dancey) seems to be WotC/Hasbro's mandate that D&D be an annual $50+ million producer, which isn't what the D&D RPG of today is ever likely going to be. Thus there was really too much pressure (IMO) on the D&D managers to perform adequately.

Le Noir Faineant · Jul 26, 2012

I wrote something at the Comeback Inn a while back.

4e's generally bad reception, as far as I have observed, was not so much because of the game itself, but because of a few decissions that can only be characterized as detrimental to RPG as a hobby, and to D&D as a brand:

Fans love OGL. WotC tries to kill OGL.
Fans love to buy PDFs online. WotC forbids PDF sales of their products.
Fans love Living Greyhawk. WotC kills Living Greyhawk.
Fans say, Eberron weird. WotC makes Eberron canon setting for D&D Online.
Fans love Forgotten Realms. WotC kills Forgotten Realms as we know it.
Fans love Dragon and Dungeon. WotC makes Dragon and Dungeon weird collection of blog articles that are to print.
Fans want better product quality and better maps. WotC publishes unedited products and worse maps.
Fans want Dragonlance, Greyhawk and Ravenloft back. WotC brings back Dark Sun.
Fans want separate miniature game. WotC merge miniature game with normal D&D. With even maps.
Fans want trimmer rulebooks. WotC publishes a ruleset that is 700 pages of "core rules", and 1800 pages of "essentials".
Fans say, bring old designers back. WotC fires Richard Baker.

Nothing of this is exaggerated. Nothing of this is made up.
Simply, since pretty much the release of 3.5, Wizbro had about ZERO respect for their customers.
Disinterest in their continuing products is the result.

And this.

THIS.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVwPgrQ_R_s[/ame]

WHAT
I don't even

Steel_Wind · Jul 26, 2012

DaveMage said:
4E has underperformed for many reasons that have nothing to do with whether it's a solid system. Instead...

5. It was plagued by a very, very poor marketing campaign at the start that alienated a significant portion of its fanbase.

Starting off the release of 4E with the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon wasn't exactly a marketing strategy designed to wins the hearts and minds of subscribers to those magazines -- who were, as a whole, the most passionate customers the brand had at the time.

If that had not happened, there wouldn't have been a Pathfinder, most (not all -- just most) of the Edition Wars would have been avoided and their biggest competitor would have spent the past five years writing awesome adventure paths and hyping their game, instead of competing head to head with D&D and ultimately surpassing it in the marketplace.

There have been many missteps in the RPG business over the course of its history. The whole "turn our official licensee into our biggest competitor" strategy still has got to rate in the top 3.

dammitbiscuit · Jul 26, 2012

Whoa whoa.

I just want to state for the record, my entire table finds Forgotten Realms just as bland as Greyhawk, and due to having missed out on the days of Spelljammer / Planescape / Dark Sun, we were TREMENDOUSLY happy with Eberron giving us a break from the multiple available samey-same campaign settings we knew of.

I understand there are people who love bog-standard vanilla, but saying "fans thought Eberron was weird" ignores at least 30 or 40 happy players from The Gamer's Society at ASU, and I'm sure many other groups of people who were overjoyed to finally try a bowl of curiously-delicious banana rocky road.

I can only assume the other sweeping generalizations have sizable holes in them as well.

renau1g · Jul 26, 2012

Ivid said:
I wrote something at the Comeback Inn a while back.

Nothing of this is exaggerated. Nothing of this is made up.
Simply, since pretty much the release of 3.5, Wizbro had about ZERO respect for their customers.
Disinterest in their continuing products is the result.

And this.

THIS.

WHAT
I don't even

Ok, that movie looks terrible, but as for no fans wanting Dark Sun? That's an exaggeration.

Fans say Eberron weird? Yup, no exaggeration there.... definitely 100% truthful.... and D&D online is pretty darn successful from everything I've read.

Results From Dungeons & Dragons Online Going Free: Revenue Up 500% | Techdirt

Steel Wind is right IMO as well. Their single biggest mistake was removing Paizo from writing the magazines.... and one they'll always have to live with now. I am happy for the team at Paizo though, they're rewarded more now for their work and able to take the game in a direction they want.

Le Noir Faineant · Jul 26, 2012

My apologies - obviously, the list is harsh in tone.

But the point is, vanilla fantasy is always the smallest common denominator.
Also Eberron was 3e only at the time; it couldn't build on the decade-long tradition and following that the other settings had established.

Not that new stuff was necessarily bad, but in retrospect, one has to wonder why a more widely accepted setting wasn't chosen.

Le Noir Faineant · Jul 26, 2012

renau1g said:
Results From Dungeons & Dragons Online Going Free: Revenue Up 500% | Techdirt

And, IIRC, the reception of D&DO in 2006 was pretty lukewarm, too.
If it ultimately managed to establish a following, good for the people in charge of it.

I too think Steelwind is right - but not in that the mags were cancelled, and the people at Paizo basically let off the hook. I think the real reason was that Wizbro critically misjudged the effects of the OGL and the power of fandom.
Including Castles & Crusades, Pathfinder, OSRIC, and Lamentation of the Flame Princess, just how many well-selling games are out there that are based on the OGL? Ten, twenty? And most of them are really games from and for gaming veterans. How could Wizbro have all of those basically quit on D&D, I wonder? Like, from about 2006 until this year, it didn't seem in the least that Wizbro had any interest in attracting gamers that played other than the recently published material. Why?

Echohawk · Jul 26, 2012

I don't think it is fair to blame WotC in any way for the third D&D movie. (Or either of the others, for that matter.) As I understand it, the D&D movie rights were sold by TSR before WotC bought the company, and WotC are as much a victim of that lousy decision as anyone watching the movies.

Maggan · Jul 26, 2012

Ivid said:
4e's generally bad reception, as far as I have observed, was not so much because of the game itself, but because of a few decissions that can only be characterized as detrimental to RPG as a hobby, and to D&D as a brand:

It's funny how things are different for people, aint it? Some things are similar, and some are not.

For the gamers I have regular contact with outside the Internet (an odd 30 or so), the list looks like this:

- Fans love OGL. WotC tries to kill OGL.
- Fans love to buy print books. A few like to by PDF's.
- Fans don't play Living Greyhawk.
- Fans say, Eberron is fun and cool.
- Fans are tired of Forgotten Realms, but there are a few who have played it for a long time.
- There were a handful fans subscribing to Dragon and Dungeon. They all had problems getting the magazines promptly and without fuss from Paizo. WotC makes Dragon and Dungeon digital, which makes it possible for these fans to get all the material when everyone else does.
- Fans want better product quality and better maps, same as always.
- Fans want Dark Sun back. And Mystara.
- Fans want a separate miniature game. And more minis!
- Fans want trimmer rulebooks. And fans want fatter rulebooks, ilke the Pathfinder rules.
- Fans say, "hey, this D&D4 thing that the new designers made, it is a fun game, and we like to play it!"

When D&D4 was released, suddenly people who were not even looking at D&D before started playing it. And this has now led to interest in older editions and the old school games.

But as a general observation, D&D4 didn't meet many fans expectations, and not WotC's targets. But for our circle, it was a success.

As for the movie, that's not WotC. They don't have the rights.

/M