Proposal: ARG Content for Approved PC Races

Satin Knights · Aug 20, 2012

Okay, I have added the ARG to the wiki. The Wild Caller is pending in committee still.

SK wants to block the 1/4 Evo in the racial entry.
Qik wants to block the half-elf favored bonus for that archetype.

SK's way at 8th level gives 8 HP or 2 Evo points.
Qik's way at 8th level gives 8 HP and 2 Evo points. But, the Summon Nature's Ally list is quite a bit weaker.

Since Qik is busy with real life at the moment and AFK, the wild caller is tabled until later.

Qik · Sep 4, 2012

Satin Knights said:
The Wild Caller is pending in committee still.

SK wants to block the 1/4 Evo in the racial entry.
Qik wants to block the half-elf favored bonus for that archetype.

SK's way at 8th level gives 8 HP or 2 Evo points.
Qik's way at 8th level gives 8 HP and 2 Evo points. But, the Summon Nature's Ally list is quite a bit weaker.

The relative weakness of SNA compared to SM is in part why I preferred my solution, since it affords you the extra evolution points whilst freeing up your FCB. Plus, the summoning feats specific to SNA are now available, which helps to make up for SNA's relative weakness.

I'm fine with either solution, I suppose; this was just the rational for my specific one.

Satin Knights · Sep 6, 2012

Archetypes should always be a little weaker than the general class, but having the change in focus provide benefits in one concentrated area. Most summoners don't dip into their SLA castings much. So, Qik's method gains too much for weaker SLAs that are hardly used. The eidolon and summoner combined are significantly stronger when they ignore the SLAs.

SK's method puts the archetype squarely in the category of "don't bother, unless you really want to cast SNA instead of SM." If a summoned owlbear appears, people expect it to only have to elude it for a minute while hunting for the druid to deal with. Having it stick around for 10 minutes on its rampage is the advantageous surprise the archetype has going for it. When you get into the levels where you are getting giants, it gets real interesting. SM spells at that level are simply dealt with via blanket dismissals/banishments of those that are outsiders.

In other words, if the significant change of the archetype is not the focus of the archetype, it should be back to the drawing board.

jkason · Sep 6, 2012

I guess my general question is: does the archetype bring sufficiently interesting fluff to bother with modifying it? If it were something that felt really unique and flavorful but had a problematic mechanic, I might be more for tweaking, but I'm not sure that I find 'summoner with a pinch of druid' inspiring enough to be worth the house-ruling, myself.

Qik · Sep 6, 2012

Although I'm not *entirely* convinced, I'd be happy to acquiesce to SK's method, as he makes a fair point regarding the fact that the SLAs might not commonly be used.

As to your point, jk, I'd be up for letting the archetype languish until someone wanted to use it. Mechanically, there are enough summoning feats specific to Summon Nature's Ally (Starlight Summons, etc) that I can see the reason someone would want to play a SNA-focused summoner. That being said, I have no desire to play the archetype myself, so I wouldn't feel its absence.

Satin Knights · Sep 6, 2012

Well... If I had a fourth character slot, I would probably try it out. But, as it is currently, I don't want to rewrite any of my current characters. Kalgor's background is close enough that he could easily slip into the archetype except for the race restriction. That and Gragnor doesn't check out often enough to really use the changed SLAs. The archetype would have been far more interesting and attractive if it was compatible with Master Summoner.

Agreed. Shelved until someone asks for it, and then with the restriction of dropping the extra 1/4 Evo point per level.