D&D 5E How much should 5e aim at balance?

Ahnehnois

First Post
Isn't the point of D&D being to be able to create any character you want?
Yep. Tht notion in itself kind of precludes your extreme definition of balance doesn't it? It's not about being able to create any character that you want and is perfecty equal to any character that anyone could want.

You know, comments like this, and some I have seen from you earlier, make it sound like you want min-maxing in D&D. It sounds like you see the ability to create a character that is stronger than the character player by another player as a virtue of the system.
These are two separate issues. Do I want it to be theoretically possible? Yes. Do I want people to routinely abuse the system? No. Theory and practice are different.
 

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JamesonCourage

Adventurer
YWhy should any PC be better than any other PC of the same level?
While entirely subjective, I think the common theme you'll find as an answer to this question is "verisimilitude", or "trying not to break people's suspension of disbelief" (thus, people are okay with half-orcs having an edge as barbarians, and halflings getting a Strength penalty). As always, play what you like :)
 

SKyOdin

First Post
Yep. Tht notion in itself kind of precludes your extreme definition of balance doesn't it? It's not about being able to create any character that you want and is perfecty equal to any character that anyone could want.
Only if your idea of a character involves "being better than the guy sitting next to me".

These are two separate issues. Do I want it to be theoretically possible? Yes. Do I want people to routinely abuse the system? No. Theory and practice are different.
Why? Why is being better than other people so important? Particularly since it opens the door to abusive and problematic behavior.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
You know, comments like this, and some I have seen from you earlier, make it sound like you want min-maxing in D&D. It sounds like you see the ability to create a character that is stronger than the character player by another player as a virtue of the system.

I find that ludicrous.

Isn't the point of D&D being to be able to create any character you want? Why should any PC be better than any other PC of the same level?
Why should a character be forced to? Why can't my character have waeknesses and strengths? Why can't I make a non-combat character without breaking the system? (and don't bring me the "I can't think of a reason a character like that would adventure", there can be plenty of reasons) Why can't I have more than 1 score of 8 or less? Why should I fight a rigid system to make the character on my head work?

I like systems where min-maxing is possible, not because I want to min-max, but rather because the oppsosite is also true. If the difference between sub-optimal and optimized is minimal in name of balance, then there is no room for weaker characters on the mix, and that is a giant lose on my book
 


n00bdragon

First Post
I like systems where min-maxing is possible, not because I want to min-max, but rather because the oppsosite is also true. If the difference between sub-optimal and optimized is minimal in name of balance, then there is no room for weaker characters on the mix, and that is a giant lose on my book

Are you saying you purposely want to play a weak character simply for the "roleplay value"? What about the other people at the table? Assuming that's what you mean that's really unfair to them. They shouldn't be forced to carry you around because you're oh so useless and thus great at roleplaying.
 

Libramarian

Adventurer
This is conflating the "Game" of D&D with the "game" that goes on around the table. In D&D, you should not be punished for choosing to play a certain class, a certain race or picking a certain option if it fits thematically with your character. When you are playing the game though, nobody is saying you should not have to deal with in-character choices. If you have a choice between door A and door B, and you have a way of knowing that, beyond door A lies your doom and you still pick door A, then you should experience the full consequence of that choice. Nobody arguing for balance is making an argument against that. But in the meta, the game as a system, if I have a choice between ability A and ability B, there should be some clear signals that ability A just doesn't work. That's a part of what balance is about.

That's great! The problem is that, in 3rd edition at least, you never had any indication on HOW to make such a character. The answer was, of course, play a spell-caster.

That's borderline offensive... and absolutely not what was meant.

I don't know anybody who enjoys that type of... thing. I can't even call it a game. Not a single form of entertainment in the world punishes bad character creation/customization choices the way you advocate (well maybe Diablo 3, with that mode where if you die you can't resurrect or something. I don't know, anybody can feel free to correct me on the specifics). I know of noone within my larger circle of gaming friends who think such a game would be good. And seriously, how can it alienate people if it's easier to approach without being fooled by the game into making wrong character creation/customization choices.
OK your take on it is less extreme and more familiar to me. I'm not strongly opposed to having some of the tactical/strategic choices made during character creation/upgrading. I don't see why there must be such a sharp distinction between these two "games" within the game as you put it. But practically I think a heavy focus on system mastery is unwise because it kinda sucks as gameplay, because the learning curve is brutal and once the best "builds" are discovered people just look them up online. i.e. it's the opposite of the classic formula for a good game: easy to learn, hard to master. It tend to be hard to learn, easy to master.
What's really interesting, to me, is that what I'd describe as "transparency" is often being described as "balance" or "what's important" to "balance". These are two completely different things in my mind.
Agreed.
I've written and deleted this post like 4 times trying to figure out what to say without offending someone. For good or ill, I have to resort to GNS terminology, but I promise to use it loosely and perhaps incorrectly :D.

D&D has always had a tension between Gamist and Simulationist concerns.* "Balance" usually seems to mean "intra-PC fairness" to most people. That's a generally Gamist concern. (I wish to be clear that I use "gamist" in no way derogatorially.)

The older (pre 3e) editions were horrible mish-mashes of mechanics, that somehow managed to barely allow you to run an rpg game. Gamist, Simulationist, and Narrativist ran headlong into each other. The primary methods of bending to one or the other were houserules. (I say this with great fondness. 2e narrowly edges out 3e as the edition I had the most fun with, in my heart.)

Now, IMO, 3e was arguably the most Simulationist version of D&D. This makes sense, given the state of the gaming world when 3e was designed, but that world changed during the course of 3e's reign. By the end, "min/maxing" had evolved from a sinful lowbrow activity to an accepted or even encouraged virtuous activity called "optimization." Since 3e had never really been designed with Gamist considerations in the forefront, this lead to what many saw as hideous imbalance. (Groups that were, perhaps, slower to adopt new attitudes might not have ever noticed a problem.) Certainly, imbalance became the rallying point for complaints about 3e.

So, when its designers sat down to make 4e. Gamist concerns rose to the top, riding on "balance". They did, AFAICT, a fine job. They created a very finely "balanced" game, with transparent, easily demonstrated, and fairly rigidly enforced fairness, both between the party members, and between the party and their adversaries. It was, to be blunt, a tremendous swing from the Sim end of things deep into the Gamist end of things.** The differences in feel at the table are profound.

Maybe a little too profound. The edition war erupted...maybe the less said, the better. I will just say that by the end of 3e's tenure, players and groups had subtly and slowly become divided over which side of the Sim-Gam axis was more important. While some groups saw 4e as a welcome breath of fresh air, others saw it has a horrid betrayal of the game they loved. Personally, I found it a bit of a wash. I have troubles with both sets of rules, and there are things I like about both as well.

So what, if anything, does this mean, for 5e? Simply put, that it needs to meet somewhere in the middle. PCs have to be playing in the same arena with each other, but they don't need to be clones. 5e has got to stop the "swinging" from extreme Simulationism to extreme Gamism, since that's at the root of the edition wars, or it will have no hope of uniting the playerbase.

An open question still remains: "Does the playerbase want to be united?" The possibility exists that most D&D players fall, not in the middle of the G-S spectrum, but at the extremes. In this case, reunion will be very difficult indeed.

Anyway, that's my thinkin' on it. Play what you will.

*Narrativist emphasis has waxed and waned slightly over the years, but D&D seems to mostly not know how to actually handle Narrative things. Instead, D&D has left most of that to either emerge from play or to be the direct result the DM putting his hand on the scales by fudging die rolls, etc. Exactly who has narrative authority over what is often unclear.

**Don't believe me? consider the oft-uttered complaint lines: "It feels like a board game.", "All the classes feel the same.", "How do you knock a Gelatinous Cube prone?" and even "Its a fine skirmish game, but not D&D." Consider also the constant threads about LFQW, and what points ring true for you and what points don't. Keep in mind that most of these changes are relatively Narrative-neutral, mostly because D&D is so mechanically Narrative-poor to begin with.
Have you ever read or played 1e? It's a pretty coherently gamist RPG by my estimation. I don't think you tried very hard not to offend people who like pre-3e editions best.

I also disagree with your analysis of 4e. I basically agree with pemerton's earlier reply to you. My frustrations reading pemerton's posts arise from the fact that he's not always clear just how much theoretical and practical knowledge he relies on for his way of playing 4e that is not in the 4e DMG. When I claim to be analyzing 4e, I'm just looking at the text itself; I'm not crossreferencing it with Burning Wheel or Maelstrom Storytelling (never even heard of this one). To me, 4e doesn't really support any metagame agenda -- gamism or narrativism -- well out of the box. The DMG presents it as essentially an adventure path system. If you follow the adventure creation guidelines then you end up with a boring piece of crap like the Keep on the Shadowfell. The DM plans a series of 10 encounters at a time, some being battles and some being skill challenges, and then the players work through it linearly with very little wiggle room for differing rewards based on skilled play or risk tolerance. It's bloodless and perfunctory. It has no metagame agenda "spark" at all; pretty much all of the entertainment value has to come from the work the DM puts in to make the encounters narratively interesting. In GNS terms the only creative agenda I see this as supporting is high concept sim -- aka play through the DMs story as new powers get unlocked now and then. I think most 4e groups play the game this way. I think this playstyle has a pretty brutal prepwork to fun ratio and limited ability to draw in new players from other forms of gaming and I don't want to see it presented as the default way to play D&D ever again.
 
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Libramarian

Adventurer
*What if, for example, you are trying to Simulate a Gamist experience?:-S
It's just the difference between acting out a tennis match, say for a play or a movie or something, and playing a real tennis match. When you're just acting, no one actually loses. If you're serious enough about it that it becomes an actual match, then yeah that's when the simulationism of gamism becomes actual gamism.
Isn't the point of D&D being to be able to create any character you want?
No, absolutely not. You can create all the characters you want with a scratchpad at home. The point of D&D is to play a fun game.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Only if your idea of a character involves "being better than the guy sitting next to me".
Am I to understand that the only way that two players could create characters that were not exactly equal in power is if they set out to do so? What if I want to create a cloistered cleric whose main ability is divining, and someone else wants to create a barbarian that smashes things? Assuming the campaign is about killing things and taking their stuff (or even if it isn't), why would these two completely disparate characters be functionally the same?

Why? Why is being better than other people so important?
No. That's why most people don't use charop boards to build their characters.
What's important is being different than other people,. What necessarily follows is that if all characters are different from each other, than all of them will be in the eyes of some, imbalanced.

Particularly since it opens the door to abusive and problematic behavior.
And what would close that door? Balance? If someone's behaving dickishly (by abusing the rules), balance is unlikely to solve the issue. People don't change.

"Abusive and problematic behavior" is the responsibility of the person doing the behavior and no one else.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Are you saying you purposely want to play a weak character simply for the "roleplay value"? What about the other people at the table? Assuming that's what you mean that's really unfair to them. They shouldn't be forced to carry you around because you're oh so useless and thus great at roleplaying.
Who's forcing them?
 

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