D&D 5E How much should 5e aim at balance?

Traken · Sep 7, 2012

chaochou said:
Many people absolutely disagree. They seem to think being a spellcaster - by definition - should give access to a metagame that being a non-caster should not.

Random idea: Wizards get to be Wizards. Fighters get FATE points*. Now they both have meta-gaming aspects that are both semi-believable.

*: Think action points but more general. Would it be helpful to the adventure to have an old chum in the City Guards? Spend a FATE point and you suddenly do. Want a ratty bridge with enemies on it to randomly fall? Spend a FATE point and, if the DM agrees, the bridge falls.

shadowmane · Sep 7, 2012

GreyICE said:
And nothing is preventing you, in any edition, from running lower level characters next to higher level characters, or adjusting the rate of XP gain. I'd argue that it can lead to a lot of in-group tension, especially if people aren't on board with that from the very conception, but that's edition neutral. If you're arguing that the level scaling in 4E was a tad intense, well... yeah. It was a problem in 3E too, but not nearly the way it was in 4E, and I think it should be changed. That being said, you can knock out the scaling 1/2 Level to both monsters and PCs fairly easily. Not saying that it even should be in there in the first place, but I don't see it as the sort of dealbreaker.

As for shoving more words in my mouth, please stop it. I don't want D&D to be "WoW on paper." I want it to be D&D. I'm actually a little disturbed that we apparently can't have this discussion without you assigning to me all sorts of opinions that I don't hold.

P.S. How many campaigns have you run with asymmetrical characters - characters of wildly different levels? How did they work?

P.P.S. Every edition caused an edition war. If you dredge up the old dragon magazine people were panicking that AD&D would take away "the D&D they love."

I apologize if I seem to be "shoving words in your mouth". I'll try to refrain in the future.

GreyICE · Sep 7, 2012

Traken said:
Random idea: Wizards get to be Wizards. Fighters get FATE points*. Now they both have meta-gaming aspects that are both semi-believable.

*: Think action points but more general. Would it be helpful to the adventure to have an old chum in the City Guards? Spend a FATE point and you suddenly do. Want a ratty bridge with enemies on it to randomly fall? Spend a FATE point and, if the DM agrees, the bridge falls.

I love FATE points, but I don't see that working. People complain that fighters only being able to use an ability once a day is "too immersion breaking." Fighters being able to "remember" a network of secret tunnels that connected the fortress to the sewer system would blow some people's minds. "You mean the fighter could just snap his fingers and make the tunnels? How did he dig all of them? It doesn't make any sense!"

I mean I was called a "terrible GM" when I revealed that I let players who succeed knowledge checks tell ME what they know about things like local kobold tribes (rather than me telling them everything, mother-may-I narrative style).

D&D players have become very set in their ways.

shadowmane · Sep 7, 2012

GreyICE said:
I mean I was called a "terrible GM" when I revealed that I let players who succeed knowledge checks tell ME what they know about things like local kobold tribes (rather than me telling them everything, mother-may-I narrative style).

D&D players have become very set in their ways.

Wow. I like that. I may have to steal it. It gives the players a part in the narrative, and it gives them some say in the creation and drive of the game world.

GreyICE · Sep 7, 2012

shadowmane said:
Wow. I like that. I may have to steal it. It gives the players a part in the narrative, and it gives them some say in the creation and drive of the game world.

It's not original to me, so go ahead and use it as much as you want. The originator system is unknown to me, but FATE uses the mechanic heavily. It's also on page 17 of the DMG2, in their chapter about cooperative world building. Some of that chapter is pure, refined gold! Also this part is hysterical:

DM'S WORKSHOP:
DRAGONS LOVE ELVES
In this example, you turn around an abusive suggestion
intended only to grant an advantage to a player.
The party finds itself in the treasure chamber of an
ancient dragon. The characters have no hope of defeating
the dragon in combat and must resort to persuasion
to avoid becoming its midday snack.
'Luckily, dragons In this world famously love and
respect the elven people,' says Paul. Not coincidentally,
he plays an elf.
In character as the dragon, you growl menacingly in
Paul's direction. "The others I might forgive," you boom,
'but to have my lair invaded by an elf, a member of a
people who allied with the dragons at the dawn of time
... why, it is enough to rouse me to homicidal fury!'
"Whoops," says Paul.

The book is FULL of really helpful examples and tips, as well as general guidelines and support.

(Have I mentioned I love DMG2 recently? I love DMG 2. If your local gaming store is dumping 4E products in preparation for 5E, go in and buy DMG 2 right now. You don't have to run 1 minute of 4E gaming to get your money's worth out of that product)

Lanefan · Sep 9, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
My base expectation is that most groups will never even look at a published adventure.

I'm surprised to hear any supporter of any edition say this.

My expectation would be the complete opposite - most groups will use published adventures* at some point(s); some will use nothing but, and only a very few - all with highly-experienced DMs - will not use canned adventures at all.

* - note that said published adventures may or may not have been written for the edition or even game system in which they are being used.

Lanefan

shadowmane · Sep 9, 2012

Lanefan said:
I'm surprised to hear any supporter of any edition say this.

My expectation would be the complete opposite - most groups will use published adventures* at some point(s); some will use nothing but, and only a very few - all with highly-experienced DMs - will not use canned adventures at all.

* - note that said published adventures may or may not have been written for the edition or even game system in which they are being used.

Lanefan

Published adventures have their place. The new DM, who hasn't quite got the creative juices flowing yet, or who don't have the time to properly prepare before the first session can use them effectively. They're easy to tweak by simply pulling out the monsters that are in them, and replacing them with the equal monsters from the game system you're using. I'm using a published adventure to introduce my 10, 8, and 6 year old boys to D&D. They're loving it. You simply eliminate the fluff, let them go on a hack and slash fest, and they're having fun.

Steely_Dan · Sep 9, 2012

Lanefan said:
My expectation would be the complete opposite - most groups will use published adventures* at some point(s); some will use nothing but, and only a very few - all with highly-experienced DMs - will not use canned adventures at all.

In DMing for 25 years I have only run a pre-canned adventure once, Ravenloft's Touch of Death, a one-off, BBQ style game.

shadowmane · Sep 9, 2012

Steely_Dan said:
In DMing for 25 years I have only run a pre-canned adventure once, Ravenloft's Touch of Death, a one-off, BBQ style game.

I have to admit this is my first use of a canned adventure. I've GMed Star Wars D6, Wushu, FASA Star Trek, GURPS, and Basic Fantasy Roleplaying Game (D&D Basic clone). This adventure I'm taking the boys through is the first canned one I've used.

Steely_Dan · Sep 9, 2012

shadowmane said:
I have to admit this is my first use of a canned adventure. I've GMed Star Wars D6, Wushu, FASA Star Trek, GURPS, and Basic Fantasy Roleplaying Game (D&D Basic clone). This adventure I'm taking the boys through is the first canned one I've used.

Which adventure is it?

D&D 5E How much should 5e aim at balance?

Traken

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shadowmane

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GreyICE

Banned

shadowmane

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GreyICE

Banned

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

shadowmane

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Steely_Dan

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shadowmane

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Steely_Dan

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