My friend wants his Archer build improved...

RUMBLETiGER · Aug 13, 2012

Not a suggestion for a level 1 character, but do you have Magic Item Compendium? A number of psychoactive skins make great armor replacements, when you've got enough money to afford them.

Omegaxicor · Aug 13, 2012

The build is level 1 now but we plan to get into the upper teens, I don't have a copy of MIC but we do so I will look at it next time we are together

Jimlock · Aug 13, 2012

Sekhmet said:
[MENTION=6674931]Jimlock[/MENTION] I disagree with your statement. Having a big Greatbow can considerably increase your base damage and range increment, which could end up being a boon to consider worthy of a feat.

Sure. Why shouldn't he use a normal composite longbow (meaning that he 'll take full advantage of strength) and save a feat?

kitcik · Aug 13, 2012

Jimlock said:
Sure. Why shouldn't he use a normal composite longbow (meaning that he 'll take full advantage of strength) and save a feat?

I am not advocating one way or the other - I am not saying these are good reasons or bad reasons - but here are some reasons that I have seen in actual gameplay:

1) If you get strength drained and can no longer wield your composite longbow which is made for, say, +3 Str, either you have a bag of bows with you (DM frowns) or you stop shooting (player frowns).

2) If you get your strength increased, in order to get all your nice bow enchantments on a new bow which makes full use of your higher strength, you need to have a complete new bow trade-in done. This wastes time and money (as selling your old bow gets 50% value only).

Jimlock · Aug 13, 2012

kitcik said:
1) If you get strength drained and can no longer wield your composite longbow which is made for, say, +3 Str, either you have a bag of bows with you (DM frowns) or you stop shooting (player frowns).

Ok so the opposition will aim for the archer's strength... ? Possible... perhaps a bit metagamy but possible. A waste of time IMHO. On the other hand some creatures deal str damage no matter what.... Still the archer should be away from those... str damage or not. Melee shouldn't be his thing.

So... to spend a feat so that i don't take a -4 to hit IN CASE my str gets reduced, so that I can get 1 extra point of dmg per hit... & NOT be able to shoot from wherever I want ("fly" comes to mind... among other inappropriate places for shooting the specific bow.)... ?

kitcik said:
2) If you get your strength increased, in order to get all your nice bow enchantments on a new bow which makes full use of your higher strength, you need to have a complete new bow trade-in done. This wastes time and money (as selling your old bow gets 50% value only).

This archer is based on a fighter. Even if he was based on a ranger, any resources spent to boost str would be a bad investment... potion or spell... by himself... or by the party's spellcasters.

If you want to do that. You get your belt of GS, your casual Composite Longbow and you save your precious Feat for something much better.

Certainly.. you make a point... but all in all color me unimpressed. Even when they are based on fighters, archers are always feat starved... the have to take too many sucky feats for the requirements only.

kitcik · Aug 13, 2012

As I said, I am not advocating either side. Just from an anecdotal standpoint, both things happened in my current campaign.

In a key fight, the archer was strength-damaged and didn't have another bow so was "turned off" for the entire battle. OK, his bad prep, but still it was annoying.

In another fight, my 10-year-old daughter, the druid, cast Bull's Strength, Mass and he was like "meh, it's useless for me." Another disappointment.

Maybe not worth using a precious feat, but there it is.

Plus, never underestimate the possibility that Dandu's post was subtely sarcastic, trying to teach us one of his zen-like Dandu lessons.

Sekhmet · Aug 13, 2012

[MENTION=6674931]Jimlock[/MENTION] My last archer build had two feats to spare by lv20, including throwing in Greatbow prof.
It's important to note that the composite feature isn't alien to other types of bows, so my DM let me smack composite a Huge Greatbow.

Until you can get an Energy Bow, Greatbows really are the best you can shoot for. The only reason that Energy Bows are better is for Power Attack, too.

Dandu · Aug 13, 2012

Jimlock said:
Good advice, except for the Bone Bow which is equally useless.
Any feat spent on an exotic bow (and in our case for 1 extra point of damage/hit) is useless.
Moreover, any decent DM will not allow the use of this bow everywhere (see text about the spikes)
Any other feat is better spent.

So you are saying there is no advantage to having a bow which automatically adjusts to the user's strength score (by which I mean, it adds the user's strength modifier to damage) as opposed to a composite bow which only does so for a predetermined strength score?

Well, I guess if the archer just doesn't increase his strength you have a point, but I for one do not see increasing strength as a "waste of time". Archers need bonus damage to punch through DR and end fights quicker. A Rogue gets Sneak Attack, for example, and a Fighter uses his Strength.

If you disagree, feel free to post level 6 Fighter archer with low strength and a composite bow and we can run some numbers.

Oh, by the way, even if you never suffer ability damage or drain, archers can still get exhausted or fatigued, which are perfectly mundane conditions and can happen to anyone.

Omegaxicor · Aug 13, 2012

All very good points, although I don't quite get the Composite or Greatbow discussion... if you have both then you get the 2 extra damage per arrow AND extra damage for strength.

Besides the Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Manyshot feats (the DM has ruled that unless someone here can point out a reason not to Improved Manyshot is being folded into Manyshot, like Ambi-dexterous and 2WF) and the Ranged Weapon Mastery what feats do you guys recommend for him to take?

The DM ruled that Weapon Focus Longbow affects the Long-bladed Bow but not in melee but Weapon Focus Longsword would affect it in melee but not at range but taking Weapon Focus Long-bladed Bow affects both so that is settled

To anyone who says taking Greatbow is a sub-par feat, what would you replace it with I have this so far (this is MY take on his character so he might add changes that I haven't thought of)

Human Fighter
Human: Point Blank Shot
Level 1: Rapid Shot
Fighter 1: Exotic Weapon (G-B B)
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (G-B B)
Level 3: Precise Shot
Fighter 4: Weapon Spec. (G-B B)
Level 6:
Fighter 6: Manyshot
Fighter 8: Improved Rapid Shot
Level 9:
Fighter 10: Greater Manyshot
Level 12:
Fighter 12: Improved Precise Shot
etc

Mistakes, suggestions, improvements?

EDIT: I was thinking of taking Wild Talent, Psionic Shot and Fell Shot so that one shot per turn is against the enemy's Touch AC (probably the last attack since it is weaker). Given that Psionic Shot is a pointless feat, since he can't use both feats he will probably use Fell Shot is it worth taking Greater Psionic Shot