Big, Strong, and Dumb

Wizards of the Coast · Sep 6, 2012

Those of you who have tangled with ogres and trolls in your D&D games know that these creatures can bring the hurt. This week, James takes a look at both of these monsters, plus discusses ogre mages (or oni if you prefer).

Read Big, Strong, and Dumb on D&D Insider here!

Ahnehnois · Sep 6, 2012

It might not seem like much, but giants only range from 19 for hill giants to 25 for storm giants, just like in 1st Edition AD&D.)

That's not a lot of granularity to work with. The difference between a hill giant and a storm giant is less than the difference between an average human and a really strong human?

steeldragons · Sep 6, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
That's not a lot of granularity to work with. The difference between a hill giant and a storm giant is less than the difference between an average human and a really strong human?

GOOD point! They should at least work it out to be 8 point difference (assuming a 10 is Average for humans and an 18 is top notch). So a 19 for Hill giants and a 27 for Storm might be better...though I'm not sure if I can get down with the idea of a strong human (18) and a Hill Giant (19) having an evenly matched wrestling match. Grappling a Troll? Sure. Tackling an Ogre with a reasonable chance of knocking him over? Ok. But doing the same to a Hill giant puts a crack in my "immersion shields."

I'd probably go with this: Trolls 19 (ripping and rending is more their thing than necessarily hitting hard), Ogres 20, Hill 21, Wood/Forest (always thought Treants should have been considered among the giant-kin

22, Frost & Stone 24, Fire & Cloud 26, Storm Giant 28 (Titans 30 and Gods whatever the DM wants/makes sense.)

Ahnehnois · Sep 6, 2012

It becomes more of an issue because unlike in AD&D, class grants you ability score bonuses and an 18 is not the top of what a human can reach at all. Humans being stronger than giants is not cool.

Remathilis · Sep 6, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
That's not a lot of granularity to work with. The difference between a hill giant and a storm giant is less than the difference between an average human and a really strong human?

average is the key.

A normal human has a strength score of 10(ish). An average ogre is 18. A human though hard work and dedication can get as strong as an ogre. If you could could find an ogre who was similarly gifted, his strength could be in the mid-20s. Thankfully, ogres are stupid and lazy and rarely have the drive to get stronger.

slobster · Sep 6, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
That's not a lot of granularity to work with. The difference between a hill giant and a storm giant is less than the difference between an average human and a really strong human?

It's also possible that the difference between 24 and 26 strength is meant to represent a bigger in-game power gap than the difference between 10 and 12 strength.

Even a mid-sized dragon could probably be said to be twice as strong as an ogre, but if we applied that literally to their strength scores, then mid-sized dragons would have strength scores in the 40's, and would only go up from there. 3.x did it like that, and I think the idea in DDN is to cut back on the stat inflation somewhat by compressing the upper end of the spectrum.

If you fiddle with the carrying capacity math you can even make this make a little sense. If a strength 24 monster has twice the carrying capacity of a str 20 monster, and a str 28 monster has twice that, then you establish a mechanical basis for the fiction that str 28 great red wyrms are in a completely different league than str 20 ogres, even though the stats are only 8 points apart. I thin it's better to do it that way, and not have to deal with stats in the stratosphere.

tlantl · Sep 6, 2012

I think they need to do something.

I rolled up a human fighter with a 20 strength. that's the same strength score as an AD&D frost giant.

Perhaps a rethink of the ability bonuses would be in order.

Ahnehnois · Sep 6, 2012

Remathilis said:
average is the key.

A normal human has a strength score of 10(ish). An average ogre is 18. A human though hard work and dedication can get as strong as an ogre. If you could could find an ogre who was similarly gifted, his strength could be in the mid-20s. Thankfully, ogres are stupid and lazy and rarely have the drive to get stronger.

Even if you take humans out of the equation, there's no way a ten foot tall troll should be as strong as a thirty foot tall giant, even if the troll is above average and the giant is below average.

slobster said:
It's also possible that the difference between 24 and 26 strength is meant to represent a bigger in-game power gap than the difference between 10 and 12 strength.

Possible, but I hope not. The notion of flatter math is rather deceptive is ability scores represent a nonlinear increase. The 2e ability scores had all kinds of problems because of this, especially when you got into giant-level strength; lets not go back there.

tlantl said:
I think they need to do something.

I rolled up a human fighter with a 20 strength. that's the same strength score as an AD&D frost giant.

Agreed.

slobster · Sep 6, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
Possible, but I hope not. The notion of flatter math is rather deceptive is ability scores represent a nonlinear increase. The 2e ability scores had all kinds of problems because of this, especially when you got into giant-level strength; lets not go back there.

How so, and what kind of problems do you mean?

Iosue · Sep 6, 2012

Well, let's look at the rules.
Your carrying capacity is 10 * STR. So the average human can carry 100 lbs without being encumbered and deadlift 500 lbs. Which is pretty good. A human with a 20 STR, the limit of human ability, can carry 200 lbs and dead lift 1000 lbs. The world record for a deadlift is 1015 lbs, btw.

The Ogre is a Large creature, so their numbers are doubled. The 18 STR Ogre can carry 360 lbs and deadlift 1,800 lbs. The typical hill giant with a 19 STR can carry 380 lbs and deadlift 1,900. Incidentally, per the article Ogres are 9 feet tall, and it mentions AD&D Hill Giants, which were only 10 1/2 feet tall in 1e, and 16 feet tall in 2e.

A Storm Giant is almost certainly a Huge creature, which means scores are doubled again. If they have 25 STR, they can carry 1,000 lbs and deadlift 5,000.

Difference between average human and human limit: 100/500 lbs.
Difference between human limit and average Ogre: 160/800 lbs.
Difference between average Ogre and average Hill Giant: 20/100 lbs.
Difference between average Hill Giant and average Storm Giant: 620/3,100.

So, the difference between a normal human and a really strong human is 200%.
The difference between a hill giant and a storm giant is 263%.

If we say a Dragon is Gargantuan and has 30 STR (monster limit), they'll carry 2,400 lbs and deadlift 12,000 (240% stronger than Storm Giant).

I dunno. The only number that seems off to me is the average human deadlift. x5 might be a bit much, but x2 is maximum carrying capacity. x3 might work. That's still 300 lbs, but seems a bit more feasible, even if it's not reasonable.