Big, Strong, and Dumb

Ahnehnois · Sep 7, 2012

pemerton said:
I can't remember the AD&D sizes, but in 3E Hill, Stone, Frost and Fire Giants are all Large, and hence no taller than 16'. (And mostly shorter than that, except for the tallest Frost Giants.) Cloud and Storm Giants are described as being 18' and 20' tall - still nowhere near 30'.

You're right here; checking this the 3e storm giant averages 21'; must have been thining of titans (and even those are only 25' to start).

I'm not sure about this. After all, multiple editions of D&D have noted Hercules as a model for a fighter PC (just as Merlin has been noted as a model for a wizard PC).

And 1st level wizards are the equivalent of Merlin? At barbarians are all as good as Conan? I'm not buying that line of reasoning. A fighter may want to be Hercules, but I don't think that any version of D&D actually gets him there, let alone to start.

Ultimatecalibur · Sep 7, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
And 1st level wizards are the equivalent of Merlin? At barbarians are all as good as Conan? I'm not buying that line of reasoning. A fighter may want to be Hercules, but I don't think that any version of D&D actually gets him there, let alone to start.

It depends heavily on which versions of the myths and stories you are using as reference.

Some versions of Arthurian myth paint Merlin as just a very wise man, others have him being the son of Satan who would have been the Antichrist if he had not been baptized.

Conan is more of a fighter/rogue than a barbarian(berserker), but his carrier is easily mimicked by every edition of D&D.

Heracles/Hercules is a victim(or more correctly benefactor) of power inflation. Demigod basically is Greek term for hero, and as possibly one of the oldest Greek heroes his accomplishment have probably been embellished the most. If you strip out the embellishments, the Labors are all things low to mid level fighters could potentially do: Kill a lion, large serpent and flock of predatory birds, capture a deer, boar, bull and ferocious dog/wolf, single handily clean out a dirty stables, seduce the female leader of a rival tribe and bring back proof, steal herds of horses and cattle, and steal apples from a well defended orchard by bribing/tricking one of the workers.

The Shadow · Sep 7, 2012

Ultimatecalibur said:
Heracles/Hercules is a victim(or more correctly benefactor) of power inflation. Demigod basically is Greek term for hero, and as possibly one of the oldest Greek heroes his accomplishment have probably been embellished the most.

While I don't argue about the embellishment, I don't think you can exactly equate 'demigod' with 'hero'. There were heroes who didn't have divine blood, though certainly the most remembered ones did. Basically, a hero is someone who is honored with sacrifices and rites after their death because of their accomplishments.

If you strip out the embellishments, the Labors are all things low to mid level fighters could potentially do: Kill a lion, large serpent and flock of predatory birds, capture a deer, boar, bull and ferocious dog/wolf, single handily clean out a dirty stables, seduce the female leader of a rival tribe and bring back proof, steal herds of horses and cattle, and steal apples from a well defended orchard by bribing/tricking one of the workers.

If you strip out the embellishments, you're not really dealing with the career of Herakles any more, though.

'Stealing apples from a well-defended orchard by bribing/tricking one of the workers' is just not the same as the Garden of the Hesperides.

Capturing a ferocious wolf just isn't the same as going to the gates of Hades itself to wrestle with and bring back the guardian of the dead!

The whole point of being inspired by Herakles is the mythic resonance - his deeds are so much larger than life. If you cut them down to size, he's not really all that inspirational any more.

Ultimatecalibur · Sep 7, 2012

The Shadow said:
If you strip out the embellishments, you're not really dealing with the career of Herakles any more, though.

'Stealing apples from a well-defended orchard by bribing/tricking one of the workers' is just not the same as the Garden of the Hesperides.

Capturing a ferocious wolf just isn't the same as going to the gates of Hades itself to wrestle with and bring back the guardian of the dead!

The whole point of being inspired by Herakles is the mythic resonance - his deeds are so much larger than life. If you cut them down to size, he's not really all that inspirational any more.

My point was about perspective. To play out Herakles' adventures you do not need Herakles to be level 30 with a strength of 30. A level 5-10 Herakles with a strength of 18 or 20 in a world of level 1 farmers works perfectly.

Steely_Dan · Sep 7, 2012

pemerton said:
I didn't know he'd gone away!

Well, not in my D&D multiverse (same with all the monster and demihuman deities), but was Vaprak mentioned in 3rd and/or 4th Ed?

Steely_Dan · Sep 7, 2012

Ultimatecalibur said:
My point was about perspective. To play out Herakles' adventures you do not need Herakles to be level 30 with a strength of 30. A level 5-10 Herakles with a strength of 18 or 20 in a world of level 1 farmers works perfectly.

What about the whole holding up a planet thing?

Ultimatecalibur · Sep 7, 2012

Steely_Dan said:
What about the whole holding up a planet thing?

Atlas was holding up the sky/heavens/Uranus. Pushing a boulder up a hill works for that.

Victim · Sep 7, 2012

Ultimatecalibur said:
It depends heavily on which versions of the myths and stories you are using as reference.

Some versions of Arthurian myth paint Merlin as just a very wise man, others have him being the son of Satan who would have been the Antichrist if he had not been baptized.

Conan is more of a fighter/rogue than a barbarian(berserker), but his carrier is easily mimicked by every edition of D&D.

Heracles/Hercules is a victim(or more correctly benefactor) of power inflation. Demigod basically is Greek term for hero, and as possibly one of the oldest Greek heroes his accomplishment have probably been embellished the most. If you strip out the embellishments, the Labors are all things low to mid level fighters could potentially do: Kill a lion, large serpent and flock of predatory birds, capture a deer, boar, bull and ferocious dog/wolf, single handily clean out a dirty stables, seduce the female leader of a rival tribe and bring back proof, steal herds of horses and cattle, and steal apples from a well defended orchard by bribing/tricking one of the workers.

Okay, fine. And magic is a bit of knowledge and a lot of scam. An ogre is brutish guy you don't like. And a giant is a person with a gland disorder. A dragon is a bigger than normal snake or lizard. Etc.

It seems really strange to use an extremely stripped down version of a myth when other mythic stuff is thrown into the game at full power - or with the combined powers of many legends and stories. I mean, the starting point for the thread is a discussion of ogres and giants. How can you reconcile the mundane explanation for what the fighter guy does with actual oversized monsters and magic?

triqui · Sep 7, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
Even if you take humans out of the equation, there's no way a ten foot tall troll should be as strong as a thirty foot tall giant, even if the troll is above average and the giant is below average.

A thirty foot tall giant couldn't even stand on his feet, due to the Square Cube Law. In a fantasy world, this do not apply. Also, Hercules, or Cu Chulain, arestronger than both the Troll and the Giant, and they are 6'

That said, in real world, Naim Suleymanonglu, who is 4'10'', can lift more weight than Manute Bol, who was 7'7''. That's so, becouse strength is a function of the section of the muscle (and the density of the fibers, it's power, and other things related to neuromuscular use of fibers) , not it's length. A longer arm isn't stronger than a shorter arm.

Steely_Dan · Sep 7, 2012

Ultimatecalibur said:
Atlas was holding up the sky/heavens/Uranus. Pushing a boulder up a hill works for that.

I've been applying Strength checks/Skills incorrectly?

I know, I know...

But, this brings up an interesting point (well, to me...), as, as has been discussed, a demigod campaign transcends levels, Herakles/Hercules wasn't trained, he was just born with a giant bonus score because he's the offspring of an affair with a Goddess.

I think D&D can handle both.