D&D Next (5E) Mike Mearls: A Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard With Arcane Tradition Walk Into A Tavern - Page 5




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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanefan View Post
    1 OK, 2-3 I can ignore or not use, 4 I don't mind, but 5 - 5 is bad bad bad...

    ...unless:

    - a hard inviolate limit is put on how many classes a single character can ever have (I would reluctantly accept 3 but I'd prefer it be 2), and
    - no more than one of those may be a "prestige class".

    Otherwise we're right back to the class-dipping insanity that was 3.xe.

    Lanefan
    What's wrong with class-dipping? I mean sure, if people are exploiting the system to create overpowered characters, that's a bad thing, and hopefully 5e's multiclass tables can balance multiclassing. But if players want to take a bunch of classes to express their character concept, why shouldn't they?

    Also, didn't 3.x have pretty strict limits on class dipping? I wasn't around at the time, but -20% XP per extra class sounds crippling.

 

  • #42
    Quote Originally Posted by GX.Sigma View Post
    Also, didn't 3.x have pretty strict limits on class dipping? I wasn't around at the time, but -20% XP per extra class sounds crippling.
    Only if people use that rule and use XP.

    I never saw it enforced.

  • #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
    Then stick to the generalist wizard. AFAIK, the "encounter" spell slots are for school specialists only, as a way of mimicking the old "additional spell slot for specialty school".
    I think the old additional spell slots were quite boring, and in general 3e school specialization was not to my taste, in fact I soon settled to be always a generalist by the rules even when I was in fact designing a specialist!

    OTOH the idea of giving encounter spell slots is even less to my taste... The biggest problem for me (besides the general distaste) is that either encounter powers are kept very very few - but once the can is opened in the game, PCs will be able to stack several options of this kind - or they will altogether be usable almost at-will, unless the length of an encounter is forced-stretched to a large number of rounds as in 4e.

    I was hoping for something more imaginative for school specialization, not a "standard" rule valid for all traditions but instead ad-hoc rules for each of them (e.g. 3ed Unearthed Arcana). Surely the first approach is easier for the designers, but the second would mean that the experience of playing an Evoker is significantly different compared to that of playing a Necromancer or a Diviner and so on... which IMHO would wonderfully increase the variety of the game!

    PS The part about wizard tradition is the only one that I disliked and worry about, all the rest in this interview look fine and interesting
    Last edited by Li Shenron; Friday, 14th September, 2012 at 08:34 AM.
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  • #44
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  • #45
    This is the first time I have been disappointed with their future plans, the only part I dig is Tieflings no longer being of Devilish ancestry only, I like the broader Planetouched deal (I have one of Yugoloth descent as a major antagonist in my current campaign).

    Oh, the rogue options sound okay.

  • #46
    Quote Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers View Post
    So would having a feat prereq have the same problem? Becuse you can play without feats? What about a skipll, we have been toldyou can play without them?


    Example: prestige class Emerald Knight, Prereq: feat :fearless and other: Must be chosen by the little blue dwarves...

    Can a DM say "My world we dont have little blue dwarves" and still have someone take the class, sure but they nowingly did so.
    I thought about whether to address this in the other post, but opted not to do so. In short, I think they probably don't have the same problem, or at least not to the same degree.

    The principle effect of ignoring a mechanic is on the mechanics themselves, and that is both necessary and seemly. If one ignores feats then the rule changes, if any, required to restore mechanical balance will probably be no more dependent on roleplaying considerations than the rules were initially. Moreover, ignoring broad rules like feats will tend to affect the PCs in roughly equal measure. Overall, if one minimizes the influence of campaign-dependent elements in the game's mechanics, ignoring one such element generally won't require making the game *even more dependent* on specific elements of the campaign in order to restore mechanical balance.

    In contrast, when a roleplaying restriction is used to justify a mechanical element more powerful (or restricted) than would otherwise exist, by necessity the new balance has greater campaign dependence than the same game without that element. A DM might knowingly ignore the roleplaying assumptions (no "little blue dwarves"), and I have no problem with the DM who does so, just like I have no real problem with DMs who de-emphasize balance in the first place. What I object to, however, is a design principle that, in aggregate, ends up creating more work for DMs who do want to pay attention to balance.

    Basically, I want the rules to minimally impinge on how I run the game while keeping a semblance of mechanical balance. If I, as DM, ever think to myself "I should introduce a complication for Player A" not because that would be interesting or flow naturally from the situation, but because player A is playing a class with bigger guns only granted because complications are assumed to occur, then the rules are shaping the campaign in a way I find unnatural and a little burdensome. If a lot of game elements are designed this way eventually it might graduate to very unnatural and substantially burdensome. If certain very strong setting assumptions are part of some game's core identity (e.g. the role of magi in Ars Magica) then my objection is lessened with respect to related areas in that game.

    So, when roleplaying considerations are included in a class, but have no impact on mechanical power, I have no complaint. When they are included and have a mechanical impact carefully designed to match each instance of roleplaying consideration in kind (something like FATE), I also have no complaint. What I hate is a tradeoff like "Always helps an elf in need" for a blanket "+1 to weapon attacks" because the first statement can have such highly variable implications. The impact of helping an elf in need should be the esteem of the elves, reciprocal help when needed, extra trouble in the city of elf-haters, or even a gift from the Elven Queen of a weapon that is conveniently +1 higher than the PCs current one. The latter even mimics a mechanical benefit I wouldn't like, but it's OK because roleplaying considerations led to an appropriate roleplaying response.

    I hope that adequately describes my perspective!
    Last edited by Ainamacar; Friday, 14th September, 2012 at 01:06 PM.

  • #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by KesselZero View Post
    My problem with encounter spells is that I've found them to be the single biggest destroyer of old-school playstyles.
    Two things:

    1) Doesn't this depend on what the encounter spells are? For example, an encounter-recharging Magic Missile wouldn't exactly "destroy" old-school play.

    2) If you use AD&D as the baseline, you'll find that old-school D&D spell casters aren't really resource-poor. It's true they got fewer spells, but they made up for it in magic items. Take a look at the random treasure tables, the items-by-level chart for NPCs, and some of the module treasures/equipment lists for pregens.

    Wands, scrolls, and other charged items start becoming common around mid-level (with scrolls being found even at low level). So a caster 'popping off'' some kind of spell effect every round isn't a new thing.

    AD&D combat can be swingy and deadly, but in it's default mode, it's not a low-magic game.
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  • #48
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    I much prefer when specialist wizards have either specialty spells on their lists, or when the specialist wizards each get an unusual, different benefit, making them play differently.

    Abjuruer: some bonus to saves vs. spells, using dispels/counterspells
    Evoker: bonus damage, maybe a specialty energy type
    Conjurer: increased duration/durability of conjurations
    Necromancer: bonuses when using attacks/skills in regards to undead, maybe get to use a couple relevant cleric spells
    Transmuter: transmutation spells harder to resist/save against, gets save bonus to avoid transmutation
    Diviner: bonuses to skills, some exclusive scrying rituals
    Illusionist: illusions more believable (harder saves), some illusions gain a real component
    Enchanter: bonuses to skills, enchantments last longer or are harder to throw off


    I'm not a fan of spellcasting rangers or paladins, to be honest, nor was I ever (since AD&D). I am guessing non-casting options will exist.
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  • #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li Shenron View Post
    I think the old additional spell slots were quite boring, and in general 3e school specialization was not to my taste, in fact I soon settled to be always a generalist by the rules even when I was in fact designing a specialist!

    OTOH the idea of giving encounter spell slots is even less to my taste... The biggest problem for me (besides the general distaste) is that either encounter powers are kept very very few - but once the can is opened in the game, PCs will be able to stack several options of this kind - or they will altogether be usable almost at-will, unless the length of an encounter is forced-stretched to a large number of rounds as in 4e.

    I was hoping for something more imaginative for school specialization, not a "standard" rule valid for all traditions but instead ad-hoc rules for each of them (e.g. 3ed Unearthed Arcana). Surely the first approach is easier for the designers, but the second would mean that the experience of playing an Evoker is significantly different compared to that of playing a Necromancer or a Diviner and so on... which IMHO would wonderfully increase the variety of the game!

    PS The part about wizard tradition is the only one that I disliked and worry about, all the rest in this interview look fine and interesting
    We still have to see how it is worded out, and mearls said upthread that the option might be presented, but a player doesn't need to take it.

  • #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prickly View Post
    Only if people use that rule and use XP.

    I never saw it enforced.
    Wait... so a DM gets pissed because his players are 'class-dipping'.

    But he also doesn't enforce the rules on it nor use the -20%XP?

    Then whose fault is that?!? Seems to me... that DM is reaping what he sowed.

    The whole '1 level class-dipping' issue looks exactly like the '15-minute workday issue'. People from the outside looking at an issue from above and getting all p.o.d, saying in a perfect world it shouldn't exist... and demanding something be done to fix it. But all the while not actually having it happen to them in the game they were DMing... because *IF* it was... they'd do something themselves about it to actually make sure it didn't happen since they didn't like it. Because that's what DMs do. They choose how their campaign is going to run, they choose what rules will and won't be used... and then they enforce those decisions.

    But if the DM doesn't enforce his own desires with his players... he has no right to complain that the game itself wasn't set up from the get go to do it for him. That's not accepting personal responsibility.

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