D&D Next (5E) Mike Mearls: A Paladin, Ranger, and Wizard With Arcane Tradition Walk Into A Tavern - Page 7




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  1. #61
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    Yes, I think they ought to consider a return to the old-fashioned style of multiclassing. You have both classes, right from the start. Otherwise dipping is inevitable and superior.
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  • #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Nightwing View Post
    Yes, I think they ought to consider a return to the old-fashioned style of multiclassing. You have both classes, right from the start. Otherwise dipping is inevitable and superior.
    Which is, basically, 4e's Hybrid classes. You have both classes, right off the bat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Nightwing View Post
    Yes, I think they ought to consider a return to the old-fashioned style of multiclassing. You have both classes, right from the start. Otherwise dipping is inevitable and superior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
    Which is, basically, 4e's Hybrid classes. You have both classes, right off the bat.
    While I like hybrids, the downside is this does a poor job of modeling the guy "turns over a new leaf" or otherwise undergoes some kind of transformation, whether literal or figurative.

    Also, I thought I read that 5e multiclasses won't be front-loaded. It will take a few levels in the new class before you have all the abilities that a normal single-classed character of that class would have at level 1. I'd look for it but I'm on lunch at work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GX.Sigma View Post
    What impression did you get?

    "In early 2013, we'll release the first wave of D&D backlist products in electronic format once again."

    Twitter links:


    The last one exemplifies a trend (which was also present in the Q&A's at the recent cons) where someone would ask them about PDFs, and they wouldn't say PDF, but they also wouldn't correct the person. From a poster at rpg.net:

    Well, it's the usual cageyness, I suppose. The question is if the previous catalog of PDFs will be returning, and by all that you show they are not. It looks like they might release some PDFs in 2013, likely the PDFs of the books they just re-released since those would be practically ready to go, and I'd imagine a few "classics" from various editions over the course of 2013 (the typical properties they used to revamp for "Return to" adventures, the popular ones from each edition). You know, it would have been very easy at any point for someone to be straightforward an simply say they had/have no plans to reopen the old PDF catalog again rather than string folks along. They still don't get the PR damage they do when they are purposefully obtuse.

    I wonder if they'll answer the 5E OGL question anytime soon or if that will continue to be shrouding in PR damaging mystery?
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  • #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CM View Post
    While I like hybrids, the downside is this does a poor job of modeling the guy "turns over a new leaf" or otherwise undergoes some kind of transformation, whether literal or figurative.

    Also, I thought I read that 5e multiclasses won't be front-loaded. It will take a few levels in the new class before you have all the abilities that a normal single-classed character of that class would have at level 1. I'd look for it but I'm on lunch at work.
    Yes, that was said at some point over the past week or so. And if 3e-style multiclassing is the way to go, I certainly approve of this. 1st character level encompasses an extensive period of training for your first class level, so it should come with perks that a character shouldn't get by single-dipping into a class later in his career.

  • #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattachine View Post
    I'm not a fan of spellcasting rangers or paladins, to be honest, nor was I ever (since AD&D). I am guessing non-casting options will exist.
    Me neither, especially the rangers. However, my objection is mainly that the original spells were only there because "some nifty vaguely class-related ability that can vary" in AD&D was often implemented in the game as "gets a spell"--even when this really didn't fit. (And people complain about the mechanics in 4E not being related to the ability!)

    That is, I don't necessarily think that spellcasting paladins and rangers are inherently a bad idea, but I dislike them because I think they lead to crappy implementation of those classes. Maybe I'm too cynical there.

    So I'm perfectly happy with paladins and rangers getting spells in some of their equivalents of fighter combat styles, rogue schemes, wizard traditions, or cleric domains, whatever those equivalents happen to be. I still think those particular options are going to get banned in any game I run on the grounds that they stink, but I don't mind them being there. Maybe with my low expectations, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

  • #67
    Quote Originally Posted by DEFCON 1 View Post
    If you don't want something in your game, but it appears in the rules... you can take it out.

    If you want something in your game, but it doesn't appear in the rules... you're screwed.
    This certainly isn't necessarily true, and I'm not sure it's even usually true.

    It can be more difficult to take something out than put it in, if the game is complex and tightly designed.

    It all depends on what you're trying to put in and what you're trying to take out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Li Shenron View Post
    OTOH the idea of giving encounter spell slots is even less to my taste... The biggest problem for me (besides the general distaste) is that either encounter powers are kept very very few - but once the can is opened in the game, PCs will be able to stack several options of this kind - or they will altogether be usable almost at-will, unless the length of an encounter is forced-stretched to a large number of rounds as in 4e.
    Yeah, encounter spells can really do a lot of violence to the classic D&D rhythm between fighters and casters. The casters are supposed to get the limited big-bang grenade spells, but they have to conserve them until they're really necessary, so the fighters get most of the "spotlight time" during the lower stakes, hack-and-slash mook battles (which are most of the battles; the fighters are supposed to do most of the fighting). If you give the casters encounter powers, then they'll steal the spotlight here.

    Which in turn means that you'll have to give the fighting types daily options so that they can share the spotlight with the casters in high stakes "nova" situations (or else dramatically reduce the power of the casters' daily abilities). And we're back to class sameyness.

  • #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Nightwing View Post
    Yes, I think they ought to consider a return to the old-fashioned style of multiclassing. You have both classes, right from the start. Otherwise dipping is inevitable and superior.
    I agree.

    To work properly, however, would also require a return to independently advancing classes and levels rather than additive like 3e.

    What I'd really like to see the designers take a long hard look at is that when you get XP you assign them to each class in a ratio set by you-as-player before that adventure. Then, when each class bumps it bumps, independently of any other(s). However, the classes are not additive - a F-4/MU-4 is NOT considered an 8th-level character; it's more about equivalent to a 5th. For things like saves, BAB, etc. rather than add 'em together you take the better of the two - in 3e terms a F-4 would have a BAB of +4, a MU-4 would be what, +2? So this 4-4 character has a BAB of +4.

    This works best when the XP tables are on something of a J-curve like 1e; the amount of XP needed to be level x in a given single class should be about on a par with what it takes to be level x-1/x-1 as a double-class.

    What this also does is allow players to focus more on one class than another and have that organically reflect in how they advance in level. If, for example, I want to have a Fighter who does a bit of Thieving on the side, I can assign its XP to reflect that as, say, 80% Fighter, 20% Thief. Obviously my levels would quickly diverge - I might end up as a F-6/T-3, for example, which is what I'm after in the first place.

    Then, a straight limit on how many classes a character can have and you're all set.

    Lan-"if you don't use XP this doesn't work, of course; but that's not the game's problem"-efan
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  • #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by GX.Sigma View Post
    You meant evoker, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by tuxego
    I devoutly hope that Mearls *DID* mean "evoker" instead of "invoker." (Dey ain't de same, yawl. . . ...
    Not necessarily. He may have just been thinking without his 4E hat on.

    See this:
    Quote Originally Posted by 2E Complete Wizard's Handbook
    Invocation/Evocation
    Description: This school includes two types of spells [snip]
    Specialist Name: Invoker
    The distinction was "Evocation spells use the natural magical forces of the planes" and "Invocation spells call on intervention of powerful extradimensional beings."

    Which to me reads as though Invoker=Warlock. That's a twist I didn't expect.

  • #70
    Quote Originally Posted by DEFCON 1 View Post
    But if the DM doesn't enforce his own desires with his players... he has no right to complain that the game itself wasn't set up from the get go to do it for him. That's not accepting personal responsibility.

    Yeah, when I first started up my 3rd Ed Planescape campaign 7 years ago, I gave the players absolute freedom, which was cool, but later on someone joined and made a Divine Bard 4/Fighter 1/Battlesmith 1/Deepwarden 2/Dwarf Paragon 1/Hammer of Moradin 4, and it got a bit silly, and then came high level magic/psionics, broken spells (murderous mist, etc).

    All a DM has to do is establish a case-by-case approval type system right up front, if you don't like a feat, race, class or spell etc a player wants to take (or just existing in the game), veto; in the 1st Ed PHB it states the DM may remove, alter, and/or add spells to the game.

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