"Enter the Crucible" L10 Endurance Utility - Resist 10 all for Encounter

To each his or her own. My wizard used stoneskin a couple of times, and it did not break the encounters. Without any doubt, it helped it helped turn a very tough encounter into a moderately tough one. The players still felt threatened (mostly because there was an elite soldier that we needed to roll a 15 to hit). But I don't tend to "pop" my dailies much, I kind of hoard them for good opportunities. Perhaps that's why I'd say that my Visions of Avarice has caused the DM more grief.

I really don't think having resist 10 will break an encounter any more than Come and Get It does. The main in-game effect (assuming I'm building and playing the characters) is that it would let the defender do his or her job a bit better. It might turn out a bit more grindy, but no more than an insubstantial creature. In my experience, grind happens mostly if you play with RAW and everything fights to the death. The solution to grind, in my opinion, is having enemies flee, or calling mop-up early, or mixing skill challenges into combat encounters.

S'mon said:

Edit: I have 1-encounter days quite often.

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Do the players know? I mean, do they use all their renewable resources on that encounter? I ask because I think this is an inherent problem with the structure of 4e, and one of the aspects that most needs some form of house ruling. My personal solution is that levels are gained once X milestones are achieved, and every encounter except the first one after an extended rest is a milestone. Players can choose not to have an official extended rest even if their characters sleep for the night. But I'm always eager to hear how others deal with it.

Ferghis said:

To each his or her own. My wizard used stoneskin a couple of times, and it did not break the encounters. Without any doubt, it helped it helped turn a very tough encounter into a moderately tough one. The players still felt threatened (mostly because there was an elite soldier that we needed to roll a 15 to hit). But I don't tend to "pop" my dailies much, I kind of hoard them for good opportunities. Perhaps that's why I'd say that my Visions of Avarice has caused the DM more grief.

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This is just my opinion, but I would try to avoid having such a "grindy" NPC who needs a 15 to be hit. (For uber-tough opponents, I tend to use solos of about the same level, plus backup. One solo took and dished out over 200 damage in round one. Both sides were impressed!)

There's a poster here complaining about an Illusionist "breaking" his encounters, but they didn't go into details. Was that you? (Probably not. I've never seen Visions of Avarice in play, due to having no wizard.)

I really don't think having resist 10 will break an encounter any more than Come and Get It does.

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Come and Get It is nasty and powerful, having a very high attack bonus on top of everything else, and one of the PCs in my campaign uses it. However, it's direct effects only last one round. (Said fighter likes to use that daily that gives him a "damage aura" (the one that does 1[W]) and then use CAGI to stick opponents next to him for a round.) Afterward the opponents can try to retreat, although this could result in a lot of opportunity attacks that stick them in place, and then they have to take that damage all over again!

I would be opposed to a PC using that power (or having Stoneskin cast on them) and then CAGI. That's taking away a big part of the weakness of being a defender. (I've heard suggestions that Battleragers can be so tough they can "optimize themselves out of a job" but that's assuming they're not using things like CAGI to make it very difficult for opponents to attack anyone other than them.)

(Incidentally, if I did that back to a PC using Come and Get It plus the damage aura, they could just laugh off the "damage aura" if they could use Enter the Crucible.)

Do the players know? I mean, do they use all their renewable resources on that encounter? I ask because I think this is an inherent problem with the structure of 4e, and one of the aspects that most needs some form of house ruling. My personal solution is that levels are gained once X milestones are achieved, and every encounter except the first one after an extended rest is a milestone. Players can choose not to have an official extended rest even if their characters sleep for the night. But I'm always eager to hear how others deal with it.

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I haven't modified the rules, except to deny an extended rest if the situation really calls for it. (For instance, a mob trying to burn down your really tough castle in the night could be loud enough to prevent an extended rest, especially with all that smoke inhalation. But that's extremely rare.)

Instead, I've just stayed away from dungeons, and now the PCs are going exploring. The last two sessions saw the PCs nearly run out of healing surges, and the first saw one literally run to 0 surges and another had 2 (and only because he had taken the Durable feat), and last session, the half-giant [goliath] barbarian literally ran out of surges and ended up 1 turn away from falling unconscious and taking ongoing damage simultaneously - he was down to 6 hp and taking ongoing 10 damage. That was one lucky saving throw!

I've just "bunched up" the wilderness encounters. You're not facing a single (even if it's a tough) encounter in one day. Instead, you've wandered into an area where cannibal halflings or thri-trin (I used these, but anything will do) frequent. None of the PCs could communicate with the halflings, as their translator turned out to be some sort of serial killer... never mind that On the first of those sessions, the PCs had gone through five encounters plus two skill challenges (the type that saps healing surges; walking through a jungle in heavy armor isn't a great idea) and got attacked in their sleep before they could get an extended rest.

I suspect if the PCs IMC didn't have an allergy to cities this pace would be hard to keep up. (Gangs don't attack every night, much less several times a night.)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

This is just my opinion, but I would try to avoid having such a "grindy" NPC who needs a 15 to be hit.

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It was a particular circumstance, and I noticed that the soldier had relatively low HP. One of the players was somewhat upset about the enemy's defenses, so it certainly made an effect. I don't recommend doing it often, but, as a one-time stunt, it was very effective.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

There's a poster here complaining about an Illusionist "breaking" his encounters, but they didn't go into details. Was that you?

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It was not me, but I enjoyed the thread.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

(Probably not. I've never seen Visions of Avarice in play, due to having no wizard.)

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The power is a ranged, sustainable (or repeatable) pull enemies towards the center of the zone with an immobilizing effect (save ends). If the enemies only have melee attacks, it allows the party to focus fire, incapacitating the other enemies in the (very large) zone. It can really disrupt a melee offensive.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

Come and Get It is nasty and powerful, having a very high attack bonus on top of everything else, and one of the PCs in my campaign uses it. However, it's direct effects only last one round. ... Afterward the opponents can try to retreat, although this could result in a lot of opportunity attacks that stick them in place, and then they have to take that damage all over again!

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I sympathized with those that found the flavor of the power a bit over-the-top, but I never found the old version "game breaking" at all, despite the automatic pull effect. Come and Get It used to alarm many, but I always thought that it allowed a fighter to actually fulfill a "defender" role. That's not to say that I have any real problem with the errata. The weapon attack against Will is pretty accurate, so it's not a huge nerf, and the advantage, in terms of flavor is worth it.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

I haven't modified the rules, except to deny an extended rest if the situation really calls for it.

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I admire your solution. Plot-based events are really the best way to deal with the issue. Not all DMs are so apt. But I would say that you have modified the rules. You have decided to ignore a large portion of them, selecting some as trustworthy and others not. I don't have a problem with this, other than the finding the mentioned fault with the quoted statement.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

Yes, it's broken. 4e has too much bloat. If WotC published products at a more reasonable rate, we wouldn't see so many unbalanced powers. This is precisely why I limit what powers and so forth I allow into my game. I wouldn't want to be surprised by having this power appear in a game and a player argue that it's "legal".

This power nerfs minions, damage auras, ongoing damage (and the relatively low-damage attacks that go with them)... and Dispel Magic has been nerfed to the point that it would have no effect on this power on the grounds that ridiculous buffs weren't supposed to be in the game in the first place.

What source is this from?

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The point is that this is resist 10, on everything, not just resist 10 on a damage type.

You can MC into something else, and pick up the skill that way.

My Rogue had this, in the final Heroic battle, at level 10.
He had 2 ongoing 10 damages, an ongoing weakness, and just shrugged him off.
Meant he could keep in the front line the whole time, and even called out the main baddie.
If he hadnt had this, he would have been crying to the cleric in the first 2 rounds.

The Fighter by chance had also picked it up.
He was having a real fine time with it, but activated it a round behind me which hit him hard.

Many powers give you resist 5, but resist 10 is a massive step up.
Combine with Weakness on the enemy and some THP, and any enemies damage hardly touched the side.

If I was DM, I probably would have targeted the PC's that did not have the resist 10 until they were out of the game.
That would have balanced up the fight.

In the end, the enemy just did not have enough oomph in their attacks to harm us.
The had a strong start and almost got us and the cleric.

But we regrouped and it did become a bit boring, and in the end the DM gave up, I think the was a bit depressed.

Anyone got any ideas for the DM ??

It is quite powerful, but at level 11+, it's very easy to ignore one PC who has the resist, and attack the others. If it's a defender with this power, they are tying up one or two creatures, and tanking them, it's fine, it's what they do, I don't have a problem with that. If it's a striker, I'll just ignore that striker and attack everyone else, again, this is quite easy, it'll protect against the occasional AoE damage, so the PC doesn't feel like the power is wasted, otherwise, impact on the encounter is minimal.

Having seen it in play, what tends to happen is that the fighter takes 60 damage before he gets to go, and decides yikes, I'm going to Enter the Crucible. By that time, things are already challenging, and he probably has already taken the lion's share amount of damage monsters can do anyway. And he spends a surge, which he will probably need to spend a few more anyway before all is said and done. It probably does save a surge in the long run, but so does regeneration and other tools, so it's not a huge deal.

It has some pretty stiff competition too, are you going to give up Mantle of Unity? Fighter's Grit? Clear Headed? Sohei Invulnerability? Arcane Gate? Ethereal Stride?

I can see some issues if everyone has it, and uses it going into the same encounter, particularly if you are running published adventures or organized play, and the players have an idea of when they are entering a difficult encounter. But same can be said about many, many powers gained at level 10+ (and even some lower level). When you tack the same strong power onto everyone in the party, you end up with some ridiculous results. It's just one of those things you silently agree not to do.

Having said all that, I would not be heartbroken if it got a slight nerf, so the power could only be used when the character is bloodied (sort of like Blessing of the Iron Tree).

I think that both the defenders in my party might take that ability (they are currently level 8)

As a HR I may reduce this power to resist 8, and MoG to resist 4.
still heavy resistance, but not invulnerable to minions and ongoing damage.

It got broken out in my campaign for the first time against Abalach-Re - weakened greatly from a failed ritual and the blow of a sword dedicated to defeating her.

It turned the tide of the battle - and thank goodness! I was perfectly willing to TPK the group; as it stands, one died, one had his mind irrevocably ruined, and the rest of the party was put under a whole lot of pressure.

-O

My Swordmage has this ability, and it has been a party saver a couple of times already and we just reached level 12. It has certainly annoyed the DM, but I don't believe it to be broken, at least for our particular group. We often have 5 or 6 encounters in a day, so having one encounter where one character can resist a good amount of damage doesn't really make things easier. The other characters are still going to take damage, even with my shielding.

Heck, since getting the ability, we had the shortest adventuring day yet for our group, with just 2 encounters, and another encounter saw a character die and it come down to a rogue and a dragon playing stealth tag with each other.

It seems to come down to playstyle and the players. If you're having just one encounter a day, then a group full of resist 10 will certainly ruin things. But I think for the average gaming group, it's not going to be a game-breaker just like most any other ability.

Obryn said:

It got broken out in my campaign for the first time against Abalach-Re - weakened greatly from a failed ritual and the blow of a sword dedicated to defeating her.

It turned the tide of the battle - and thank goodness! I was perfectly willing to TPK the group; as it stands, one died, one had his mind irrevocably ruined, and the rest of the party was put under a whole lot of pressure.

-O

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Abalach-Re is a 23rd-level solo controller. Should a 10th-level power have that much impact?

Her Morphic Soulburn aura does 10 damage. Zapped. Her disrupting touch attack deals 3d10+4 damage and ongoing 10 force damage. The PC is effectively taking 1d10+5 damage from her epic level attack. Her defiling field attack does ongoing 15 damage, so the PC only takes 5 damage per turn. Her Vengeance of Adaptive Flesh does the same.

Abalach-Re is practically tailor-made to be beaten by this power.

(I note that Abalach-Re had been weakened - I assume you're not using the game term - and so was probably less than 23rd-level there. A creature built like her, or that starspawn that dishes out ongoing damage - gets nerfed badly by this power.)