"Enter the Crucible" L10 Endurance Utility - Resist 10 all for Encounter

Ferghis · Sep 28, 2012

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
Abalach-Re is a 23rd-level solo controller. Should a 10th-level power have that much impact?

I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I was going to look up a few examples of powers that could dramatically change an encounter, but it occurred to me that the response could easily be that those powers were overpowered as well. I want to keep the discussion focused on this power, so I'm not going there.

So, I'll address the question posed: yes, I think that a daily utility, of any level, should be able to have a dramatic impact on an encounter. I'll go as far as saying that I think that dailies should occasionally even be able to resolve an encounter outright. It's fun to have characters that really "shine" once a day. "Thank god so-and-so had still had that power to use, or else we would be toast," they would say. But that's my position on game design; let's discuss the specific example you raise.

The monster in question, specifically, is one that novas poorly, and instead of occasionally inflicting lots of damage, inflicts less damage more frequently (via aura and ongoing damage). These are the kind of enemies that are best confronted by resist and regeneration. So a character that can conjure those traits should be expected to do very well against them. This is not a situation specific to Enter the Crucible: it's normal tactics. There is nothing wrong with this power that isn't also wrong with bringing a fire resistance potion to a fight against fire elementals. If you really want another example, a shifter defender, at epic, would have regeneration 6 (or 8, if a warden with Longtooth Spirit Shifter) when bloodied and resist 2 when bloodied. That would easily negate 10 damage almost every bloodied round of every encounter with an encounter power. The power we're debating is a daily utility: it should do dramatically more, and remain good throughout the character's career. Normal damage for a level 23 enemy is 4d6+17, and reducing that by 10 still averages over 20 damage per hit - for at-wills. Solos can do more, let alone with rechargeable or encounter attacks. Insubstantial monsters halve almost ALL damage PCs inflict: there is something to be said for allowing characters to sometimes have a similar impact on a fight.

So, to answer your question again, yes, it occasionally should.

Blackbrrd · Sep 28, 2012

The question to ask is how would the players feel if every three-four encounters you had to fight a monster (elite or solo) with 10 Resist All? I would guess they would really dislike it. Especially if it was given to an Elite or Solo

Ferghis · Sep 28, 2012

Blackbrrd said:
The question to ask is how would the players feel if every three-four encounters you had to fight a monster (elite or solo) with 10 Resist All? I would guess they would really dislike it. Especially if it was given to an Elite or Solo

I can't speak for everyone else, but I do regularly encounter one monster in a group that is really troublesome. I feel this way about the following monsters and traits (particularly at epic, but also at paragon):
- Swarms
- Monsters that shrug off effects (whatever the reason - even just the solo's +5 to saves)
- Insubstantial
- Threatening Reach
- Monsters that bring in more (non-minion) monsters (whether conjurations or resurrections).
- Stun or dominating at-wills or multi-attacks.

And this doesn't even really begin to get into epic monsters' powers. Many epic solos have multiple turns in a round. That effect that lasts until an enemy's end of next turn now sucks. Resist 10, as a daily, is fairly comparable to any of these.

Obryn · Sep 28, 2012

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
Abalach-Re is a 23rd-level solo controller. Should a 10th-level power have that much impact?

Actually, I beefed her up to be a more capable, challenging "boss" solo ... and then nuked her, afterwards. (It was a pretty epic fight, actually - the party needed to take apart her transformation and protection ritual in a 12-success skill challenge while being drained of healing surges from her defiling ritual and assaulted by her weakened kuotagha. And THEN they had to face her.)

The sword hit and ritual failure themselves brought her to bloodied, left her at -5 to defenses for the encounter, cost her an action point, removed her Clonic contingency (see below), kept her aura in check ... and ruined the quite valuable artifact used to do it. Otherwise, Crucible or no, the party wouldn't have stood a chance. I could have had her retreat at a bit over 100 HP, but the party managed a near-miraculous final round and critted her twice.

This was a rather unique one-time opportunity to defeat a sorcerer-queen who'd overextended herself via the intervention of an artifact dedicated to defeating her - a whole lot like how Kalak was killed, so I thought there was precedent.

Enter the Crucible saved one character's bacon, which admittedly helped a lot. But it did nothing to protect anyone else.

I've gone ahead and attached her stat block. Knowing Abalach-Re, it's entirely likely she had another contingency plan set up... I'm really looking forward to seeing how my campaign evolves from here - I seeded some rumors about gods coming back at the Blue Shrine, but there's bound to be some interesting stuff going on back in Raam, now, too...

-O

(Psi)SeveredHead · Sep 28, 2012

Are you a fan of Sly Flourish? Quite a few of the changes look familiar.

Completely apart from the power in question, I think I might steal that entire encounter.

Although not anytime soon, as my PCs are 9th-level and currently like her.

Obryn · Sep 28, 2012

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
Are you a fan of Sly Flourish? Quite a few of the changes look familiar.

Completely apart from the power in question, I think I might steal that entire encounter. Although not anytime soon, as my PCs are 9th-level and currently like her.

Thanks!

Yep - the Epic Level book they've been selling on Amazon is useful well down into Paragon tier when your party is even semi-optimized.

(They can't do equipment optimization, but I help them make the most of their classes and feats.)

This was a conversion of the 2e adventure Forest Maker, which is frankly 70% worthless. (It spends an absurd amount of time detailing a neighborhood in Tyr and assuming your high-level adventurers are schlubbing around as caravan guards to arrogant merchants.)

I've converted all of the unique encounters there if you need anything else! A non-solo Tembo, an Athasian roc and its rider, gith minions... The roc was especially hard; the MM version sucks.

It ended up a bit differently than I had thought likely - the party had just finished the City by the Silt Sea adventure and dealt Dregoth a defeat by breaking some of his toys. The party let this information drop, not knowing that Rafernard was really Abalach-Re. Now, she had absolutely no idea Dregoth was still alive, much less a potential threat, so it caused her to be even more reckless than normal, rushing the ritual in her fear and need for immediate power.

It was a really, really satisfying couple of sessions.

-O

Istar · Sep 29, 2012

Okay had another battle with this last night.
The DM is quite depressed about it.

The Fighter has this, we are level 11, it works for him.
I am a Rogue MC Avenger and take Endurance as the skill power.
I am like a tank, and could stand in a lava flow ...

S'mon · Sep 29, 2012

Ferghis said:
Resist 10, as a daily, is fairly comparable to any of these.

Yes - your posts clearly demonstrate that Resist 10 is a good Epic-level ability.

Ferghis · Sep 29, 2012

Now if the rest of you would see things my way, we would all get along.

S'mon · Sep 29, 2012

Ferghis said:
Now if the rest of you would see things my way, we would all get along.

You've proven that Enter the Crucible is a great power for Epic level PCs, closely matched to other Epic level abilities, and not at all unbalancing at Epic level.

Pity it's a level 10 utility...