"Enter the Crucible" L10 Endurance Utility - Resist 10 all for Encounter

Primitive Screwhead · Sep 30, 2012

My group has a battle-rager fighter, and we ignored the rumored errata stating that the temp hit point gain is only once a round. We have been playing that he gains temp hit points on each melee attack taken and invigorating attacks given. This is roughly equivilent to resist all 10 for every encounter.

Not broken at all, and actually kinds fun. Last session he soaked over 1,000 hit points of damage (28th level).

I don't see how a daily level 10 resist all 10 can be broken.

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Ferghis · Sep 30, 2012

S'mon said:
You've proven that Enter the Crucible is a great power for Epic level PCs, closely matched to other Epic level abilities, and not at all unbalancing at Epic level.

Pity it's a level 10 utility...

I could agree with an argument that makes it a level 16 utility, but the points I was trying (and possibly failed) to make was that (a) it's a utility power that should remain useful through all levels and (b) that there are similarly potent abilities that are encounter powers, and this is a daily power, so it should be more potent.

For the sake of comparison, that shifter warden I highlighted above would have resist 2 and regenerate 6 at paragon (when bloodied) that it could use every encounter. A once a day resist 10 all is a reasonably comparable ability even at paragon.

S'mon · Sep 30, 2012

Ferghis said:
I could agree with an argument that makes it a level 16 utility, but the points I was trying (and possibly failed) to make was that (a) it's a utility power that should remain useful through all levels and (b) that there are similarly potent abilities that are encounter powers, and this is a daily power, so it should be more potent.

For the sake of comparison, that shifter warden I highlighted above would have resist 2 and regenerate 6 at paragon (when bloodied) that it could use every encounter. A once a day resist 10 all is a reasonably comparable ability even at paragon.

I don't tend to have a huge number of fights in one day, so for me peak ability is more important than always-on. For me I'd say Encounter Regenerate 10 was still far weaker than Daily DR 10, since DR operates vs all attacks immediately, not 1/round after damage. However I can see a case for DR 10 Daily being ok at 16th level. Kinda marginal but I can see a case, given how damage scales and how high-Paragon PCs are starting to face Epic threats.

Neonchameleon · Oct 1, 2012

Published in Into the Unknown: The Dungeon Survival Handbook, page(s) 71.

Ugh! That's the one book I consider banning for 4e. The one in which they weren't really trying. And managed to produce a power for rogues that makes Low Slash seem like a poor choice.

Blue · Oct 1, 2012

It's powerful, but not broken. One of the lower level fighter dailies gives Resist 5 all encounter as an effect. We see this on a battlerager who has loads of temporary HP every round and it yes it make him tough, but not invulnerable. And everyone else doesn't have it.

Now, if every character used a feat/background to get Endurance, and your DM pinkie-promised you to only have a single encounter a day then yes. Even there the surge cost would hurt non-defenders with less surges. But in general play, at the opportunity cost of another 10th level power (or the Skill Power feat), and it being for one out of what, 5 or 6 encounters in a day, it's far from broken.

Also remember that it doesn't scale. Resist 10 at 10th sounds nice, but paragon is right around the corner. And epic beyond that.

Dragoslav · Oct 2, 2012

This power has saved my butt on several occasions. It's not just good for Defenders, but for any character who wants a license to act with reckless disregard for their own safety. You have to be trained in endurance to take it, which is a pretty underwhelming skill in the first place, so why not give it something to make it more appealing?

Of course, I can imagine the frustration our DM was feeling when it turned out that the party's Defender also had the power at the same time...

S'mon · Oct 9, 2012

I got a new perspective on this tonight when my 9th level party faced an 11th level black dragon Solo, backed up with a wounded Oni who escaped the previous battle (Dungeon Delve #8 upgraded to post-MM3 monster stats). The dragon's bite did x1.5 standard damage, 3d8+14; twice a round thanks to First Bite. The Cleric hit it with a Daily that had it doing -10 damage on melee attacks, and barely slowed it down - took it from 280 hp to 73 hp (I always halve monster hp), but it killed 3 PCs and the 2 survivors only escaped because I rolled consecutive '1's on its attacks as it was chasing them through the sewers.

I guess with post-MM3 damage, maybe Enter the Crucible is not so bad.

Ferghis · Oct 9, 2012

Thanks for the update.

Neonchameleon · Oct 10, 2012

S'mon said:
I got a new perspective on this tonight when my 9th level party faced an 11th level black dragon Solo, backed up with a wounded Oni who escaped the previous battle (Dungeon Delve #8 upgraded to post-MM3 monster stats). The dragon's bite did x1.5 standard damage, 3d8+14; twice a round thanks to First Bite. The Cleric hit it with a Daily that had it doing -10 damage on melee attacks, and barely slowed it down - took it from 280 hp to 73 hp (I always halve monster hp), but it killed 3 PCs and the 2 survivors only escaped because I rolled consecutive '1's on its attacks as it was chasing them through the sewers.

I guess with post-MM3 damage, maybe Enter the Crucible is not so bad.

The fight that caused you to nerf Moment of Glory and ban splatbooks was pretty much a limit case anyway. The dragon was doing something like or d12+3 damage on the breath weapon, Moment of Glory was covering a pile of minions and I think you rolled a 1 or 2 on three breaths running. The dice just hated you for once - and a single 3 early on and it would have been a very different fight.

S'mon · Oct 10, 2012

Neonchameleon said:
The fight that caused you to nerf Moment of Glory and ban splatbooks was pretty much a limit case anyway. The dragon was doing something like or d12+3 damage on the breath weapon, Moment of Glory was covering a pile of minions and I think you rolled a 1 or 2 on three breaths running. The dice just hated you for once - and a single 3 early on and it would have been a very different fight.

That was a pre-errata Young Green Dragon, with truly pathetic damage output. I don't think it conformed to any formula, even pre-MM3 it should have been doing damage output roughly equivalent to 5 5th level creatures, at least 30 damage/round (average 3 attacks/round, 10 damage/attack), and was nowhere near that.

The next time I ran a dragon, I knew to upgrade the damage, although this was still pre-MM3 so I didn't have a formula to work off. Still, I got very close to MM3 standard (just slightly short, I think) and that red dragon ate your PC and routed the party.