D&D 5E Multiclassing in Next

DaCowboy · Sep 18, 2012

I'm in agreement with those who don't think the spells should be more powerful and such. Basically I think multiclassing should be for specific archtype purposes. A fighter with counterspell, a rogue/thug with a greatsword, a cleric who dabbles as a warlock.

Most of the issue would be fixed with the frontloading of the classes not passing in multiclassing but that doesn't mean the "powers" of a class should be bumped up from lvl 1 regardless of character level. Maybe you should have waited till you were such a good fighter before trying to be a wizard. Or maybe you have a plan.

Also, maybe limit the amount someone can multiclass. Something like 2 until level 8 or 10 then you can dabble in a 3rd.

Regardless of any of this, someone will always find a way to exploit any system so the DM should have a certain level of control on the game (Even if his/her choice of control is none).

And as far as the real life justification of level dipping. I think that comes down to RP. For instance, I like the idea of a fighter with counterspell so maybe I pick up a book on magic at a town and study or peak over the wizard's shoulder when he's reading up at night.

Magil · Sep 18, 2012

Dannyalcatraz said:
Anyone can learn to fight, not everyone can bend reality to their will with a few words and gestures.

But anyone can learn to bend reality to their will with just a few words and gestures. At least, that's what the lore behind the wizard class tends to say.

Li Shenron said:
So should there be also something the Fighter or the Rogue has, that becomes irrelevant at higher levels?

Not quite as comparable, considering that the rogue and fighter don't tend to get the myriad of options that a wizard gets. It'd be comparable if the rogue and fighter each had, say, 9 different special maneuvers at 5th level to compete with the wizard's 9 spells.

mlund · Sep 18, 2012

Bluenose said:
What new abilities do the Fighter and Rogue get at high levels that are more powerful than their low level abilities? If there aren't any, just bigger numbers, then you might find it rather hard to take abilities away and leave them anything to do.

Bingo. The Fighter and Rogue don't have an expanding tree of slots like casters do. If all the Wizard got was more and more 1st level spell slots and maybe the ability to cast more of them every turn then you might have parity. That's not how it is, though. There's no AEDU enforced parity in Next, so that's Apples and Oranges.

I suppose you could relate to the fact that the Fighter's first level HP, HD, and weapon damage + 1d6 stand no chance to overcome Level 12 challenges. It's the other 11 levels of HP, HD, and Combat Superiority that make it possible. That individual level of HP, HD, and damage is the equivalent of the Wizard's first level spell output. Neither is up to a Level 12 challenge.

The Fighter's low-level assets contribute a small fraction all the time. The Wizard's low-level assets contribute a small fraction, but you'd seldom use them until you're out of high-level assets. That's simply the difference between Daily vs. Static resources.

- Marty Lund

Li Shenron · Sep 18, 2012

I just can't possibly understand how you guys want a game where you have "old stuff" on your character sheet that is useless.

slobster · Sep 18, 2012

Li Shenron said:
I just can't possibly understand how you guys want a game where you have "old stuff" on your character sheet that is useless.

This is why a spellpoint system appeals to me. Or a system where you don't have spell slots of any particular level, just a few (six to ten-ish) that can be used to prepare spells of any level, with low-level spells scaling so that they remain viable options at higher character levels.

Plus some simple at-will magic options, of course.

DaCowboy · Sep 18, 2012

slobster said:
This is why a spellpoint system appeals to me. Or a system where you don't have spell slots of any particular level, just a few (six to ten-ish) that can be used to prepare spells of any level, with low-level spells scaling so that they remain viable options at higher character levels.

Plus some simple at-will magic options, of course.

I do like this concept. This would certianly control the level of power a caster level would have. Access to spells would have to be worked into this, otherwise you're just a sorceror.

Dannyalcatraz · Sep 18, 2012

Bluenose said:
So what's the requirement for someone to be able to "bend reality to their will"? Int 11, as far as I can see. Not too hard, half the population has that by random generation.

Also, if "anyone can learn to fight", why did so many cultures put so much effort into training certain people into being good at it? Were they all unaware how easy it was? Or maybe it's harder than you think.

Learning how to fight a little bit is easy. Mastering it is very difficult.

Learning how to bend reality to your will like a Mage is like being a quantum physicist- learning just a little bit of useful quantum theory is a mentally challenging task.

tlantl said:
I guess this isn't as true as one would like to believe in a game where two-thirds to three-quarters of the base classes are spell casters of one kind or another.

Don't confuse variety with number of members in those various classes.

There are lots of different sub-specialties (classes) in science, but scientists as a whole amount to about 1 in 600 professionals with post-graduate degrees in the USA...and are rarer in developing nations.

IOW, depending on the campaign, the number of Clerics or Wizards alone might outnumber the total of all other full casters in the world. And we know from past DMG demographic suggestions, all of the clerics AND wizards combined will be outnumbered by Fighters.

Magil · Sep 18, 2012

Li Shenron said:
I just can't possibly understand how you guys want a game where you have "old stuff" on your character sheet that is useless.

I admit, my problem is more with the current model of spellcasting being used more than anything else. You either have "since 1st/2nd level remain useful throughout your adventuring career, anyone who continues to gain more spells becomes exponentially more powerful than those who do not," or you have "after x levels, your lower-level spells become less and less useful." Even within the restrictions of the action economy, the spellcaster will be more flexible than one who cannot cast spells, which is a form of power.

Neither is particularly appealing, which is why I like 4th edition's approach to powers. But DnD Next isn't going to have the 4th edition approach, with good reason--I have a feeling even most 4th edition fans wouldn't pay much for a repackaging of 4E. But as long as they keep the current model of spell progression for wizards/clerics in DnD Next, I'm not seeing many good solutions. What I'm seeing is once war clerics pass mid-levels, they use Divine Favor over and over for their 1st level spell slot because it scales so well (especially with bounded accuracy).

Dannyalcatraz · Sep 18, 2012

Li Shenron said:
I just can't possibly understand how you guys want a game where you have "old stuff" on your character sheet that is useless.

It's only useless if you can't come up with a use for it...

I've seen partymates use Grease to ruin a Lich's day, and as a DM, used a trio of spells 3rd level and lower to take the wind out of the sails of an "Epic Level" party.

That is not to say I'm averse to change. A few weeks ago in this very forum, I suggested that spells should have Cantrip, standard, greater and Ritual forms. As one increased in power (levels), the caster could learn more powerful versions of the spells they already know.

mlund · Sep 18, 2012

Li Shenron said:
I just can't possibly understand how you guys want a game where you have "old stuff" on your character sheet that is useless.

Good point! Once you reach, say, 4th or 5th level spells casters should really have to trade out lower-tier spell-slots on a 1-for-1 basis to keep everything tidy and relevant.

4/4/4/4 levels up to 2/4/4/4/2 and eventually 0/4/4/4/4, 0/0/4/4/4/4 etc. Or you could mix-and-match among them with no more than 4 spells of any particular level, no more than X (2-4 based on level) of your max tier, and no more than 16 spells total at a time. That could work.

- Marty Lund

D&D 5E Multiclassing in Next

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