[OOC] The Seeds of Chaos

CrimsonFlameWielder

First Post

• Nov 7, 2012

• #41

Here's my logic:

Most Conjurations have the Occupies No Squares property.
If a conjuration has the Occupies No Squares property, then it does not occupy a square, does not need to be supported by a solid surface, and can float in the air.

Ursa Maximus is a Conjuration summoned using the Call Spirit Companion power.
Creatures summoned using the Call Spirit Companion power occupy 1 square.
Therefore, Ursa Maximus does NOT have the Occupies No Squares property normally given to conjurations.
Because Ursa Maximus does not have the Occupies No Squares property and occupies 1 square, it does not NOT need to be supported by a solid surface, and cannot float in the air.

I only took one logic class, however, so my thinking may very well be flawed...

I'm definitely willing to allow a spirit creature to float in the air...but how would movement work? It doesn't have a fly speed... so would it be able to use its normal walk action to walk...in the air?

 

log in or register to remove this ad

Goldhammer

First Post

• Nov 7, 2012

• #42

I move back Torqua back to L14. Haaku Can have my old spot of L13 if it means we can move on.

 

WEContact

First Post

• Nov 7, 2012

• #43

I see, you're understanding is that since the "doesn't need to be supported by a solid surface" rule is printed under the Occupies No Squares bullet, it's logically dependent on the "occupies no squares" rule. I don't think that that is valid conclusion, as there is no language in the rules text that implies any dependent relationships between those two rules. I think that if a rule says "this particular conjuration is an exception and does occupy a square" that that's all that changes. It would need to also make an explicit exception to the "conjurations don't need to supported by a solid surface" rule for that rule to change as well.

 

Last edited: Nov 7, 2012

CrimsonFlameWielder

First Post

• Nov 7, 2012

• #44

That still doesn't address movement. Can a spirit companion fly by means of walking on air due to not needing to be supported?

 

WEContact

First Post

• Nov 7, 2012

• #45

Conjurations have no inherent move. If and how they can be moved is described in the relevant power. Call Spirit Companion states that the conjurer can move the SC a distance equal to the conjurer's speed when taking a move action.

 

CrimsonFlameWielder

First Post

• Nov 8, 2012

• #46

Right. And typical movement occurs on the ground without a flight or teleport speed... so if the spirit companion can be summoned in the air...can it be moved in the air when its summoner takes a move action?

 

WEContact

First Post

• Nov 8, 2012

• #47

Yes, just like a Wizard who has used Bigby's Icy Hand isn't limited to moving his conjuration in two dimensions.

 

S

Son of Meepo

First Post

• Nov 8, 2012

• #48

I think this is just one of those unclear rules that is going to have to be left to the DM, but here is the source of the confusion.

In PHB2, the not supported by a solid surface rule was under the Unaffected by the Environment bullet point. In the Rules Compendium it was moved to the Occupies no Squares bullet point. So it is certainly reasonable to suggest that the change was intentional and that floating is dependent upon not occupying a square.

I suspect a lot of people still use the PHB2 rules because it makes for a lot of headaches. (Encounter with flying creatures or multiple levels of terrain, etc.)

If the conjuration can't move vertically and doesn't have the ability to climb (no Athletics score and no climb speed) then it can never change elevations.

A conjuration can't swim either (no swim speed and no athletics skill). Can it move in water at all or is that covered by the environment? And if water is, then why isn't air? (Which is why I suspect the rule was originally there.)

Does an Eagle Shaman's spirit companion really just "hop" around?

I think the intent was that occupied one square means just that. Another creature can't occupy the same square but I could certainly see other DMs ruling differently.

 

CrimsonFlameWielder

First Post

• Nov 8, 2012

• #49

I think it should be ruled in favor of intent and flavor rather than strict RAW... A spirit companion animal should behave exactly as it would were it a normal animal... if it was a bear, lion, wolf, elephant, or any other land-based animal, it should only move on the ground (though i would certainly make some leeway here for situations where enemies were on different elevations, and the spirit companion would need to "jump" to get to them). If the spirit companion animal was an eagle, hawk, or any other flying creature, then it SHOULD act like a flyer. I haven't delved too deeply into what kinds of spirit companions a shaman can have (since I've never played one), though.

 

S

Son of Meepo

First Post

• Nov 8, 2012

• #50

Sounds reasonable to me. I have moved the SC back a row.