Pathfinder 1E What is Paizo going to do when 5E comes out?

I think it's a non-issue. PFRPG appealed most to people who didn't want to switch off of 3.x How a 5th edition is going to entice that crowd to switch systems after another five years of entrenchment and investment... I don't know. Sure, PF players may try 5e but I don't think we'll see a mass migration.

Part of Paizo's business model involves cross-product linking. They churn out a lot of very, very high-quality adventures. Well, who wants to switch to 5e when all that awesome adventure content won't be compatible? Not I. Who wants to give up that adventure content, the players' companions, the campaign settings material, just because 5e something something causes orgasms? Again, probably very few subscribers.

I think the "D&D" market fragmented and isn't going to reunite. 5e is no more a factor Paizo needs to think about than Ultimate Equipment was a factor WotC needs to think about.

Anguish said:

I think it's a non-issue. PFRPG appealed most to people who didn't want to switch off of 3.x How a 5th edition is going to entice that crowd to switch systems after another five years of entrenchment and investment... I don't know. Sure, PF players may try 5e but I don't think we'll see a mass migration.

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I don't think the 3e fanbase was ready for that edition to end. But we've had a 4 year reprieve with Pathfinder. People have had opportunities to finish campaigns and start new ones. If 5e has an audience overlap it might hurt sales and cause some Paizo shrinking.

PF does have a problem: Book creep. I've got a sneaking suspicion that 99% of new players will need a nice internet connection to play PF, because carting around the load of books that PF now requires to play one of its APs is getting silly.

How many books do you take to a PF session as the GM? Do you also have a computer/iPad available?

(The level of system mastery required to run PF is getting very high indeed. I run PF casually, if weekly, and I find it an intensely opaque and annoying system to run).

With regards to Wizards adventures, the problem is far more in the corporate oversight than the writers. There have been restrictions on the adventures which has made them much, much worse than they should have been - a corporate blindness to what actually makes a good adventure, and far too limited a target market.

MerricB said:

PF does have a problem: Book creep. I've got a sneaking suspicion that 99% of new players will need a nice internet connection to play PF, because carting around the load of books that PF now requires to play one of its APs is getting silly.

How many books do you take to a PF session as the GM? Do you also have a computer/iPad available?

(The level of system mastery required to run PF is getting very high indeed. I run PF casually, if weekly, and I find it an intensely opaque and annoying system to run).

.

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I agree that Pathfinder is seeing book creep, but it's not that bad - at least, not as bad as D&D.

I'm still playing with just the PF core rulebook, APG, Bestiary 1 and an AP, even though I own far more than that (PF Core, APG, Ultimate Combat & Ultimate Magic, Gamemastery guide, Bestiary 1-3, lots of AP).

I do use an iPad as well, instead of lugging the physical books and AP's around. One of my players uses the PFSRD instead of the books, which can be a little challenging if he pulls something beyond the core book (but easy enough to reference).

Still, as I said, it's not been a problem. I feel pretty much I could run a good game with just the main Core book, APG (though that's optional - just like the classes its adds) and Beastiary 1.

Stormonu said:

Still, as I said, it's not been a problem. I feel pretty much I could run a good game with just the main Core book, APG (though that's optional - just like the classes its adds) and Beastiary 1.

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That isn't my problem with PF. Try running one of the Skull and Shackles adventures with just the Core Book and the Bestiary I.

I can run almost all 4E published adventures with just the Rules Compendium (and possibly Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium and the Monster Vault for the others), because Wizards don't insist you own all the books and have them at the table. Paizo does - and there are now a LOT of books they insist you bring to the table.

Core Rulebook. Bestiaries I, II and III. Ultimate Combat and Magic. APG. And, shortly, Ultimate Equipment.

A lot of NPC statblocks reference items from other books.

It's great for committed PF DMs... possibly... but it makes the system a lot less newbie-friendly.

MerricB said:

That isn't my problem with PF. Try running one of the Skull and Shackles adventures with just the Core Book and the Bestiary I.

I can run almost all 4E published adventures with just the Rules Compendium (and possibly Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium and the Monster Vault for the others), because Wizards don't insist you own all the books and have them at the table. Paizo does - and there are now a LOT of books they insist you bring to the table.

Core Rulebook. Bestiaries I, II and III. Ultimate Combat and Magic. APG. And, shortly, Ultimate Equipment.

A lot of NPC statblocks reference items from other books.

It's great for committed PF DMs... possibly... but it makes the system a lot less newbie-friendly.

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While it might be true that any competent GM could create decent adventure using a limited amount of tools, even for PF - why should anybody be limited by the amount of toys in their sandbox to do what they want?

I could have limited my Kaidan Japanese horror setting (for example) to the Core and Bestiary I and not required a Kickstarter to generate additional rules and monsters for Kaidan, but why? Additional subsystems and specific Japanese folklore monsters can very well expand the excitement of what a Japanese horror setting should be.

The same could be considered for a Pathfinder AP - why limit it?

MerricB said:

PF does have a problem: Book creep. I've got a sneaking suspicion that 99% of new players will need a nice internet connection to play PF, because carting around the load of books that PF now requires to play one of its APs is getting silly.

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Two big player books a year and one GM book isn't that bad. There are four assumed accessories for PCs and three for GMs (okay, 7 for GMs as the player books are also assumed).

The only games without book creep are dead games that aren't supported.

MerricB said:

How many books do you take to a PF session as the GM? Do you also have a computer/iPad available?

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Everyone at the table has an iPad, some with an PF app, some with the books.
But since I run the game and gaming is my big hobby I have all the books on a shelf behind me, so it's not an issue.

MerricB said:

That isn't my problem with PF. Try running one of the Skull and Shackles adventures with just the Core Book and the Bestiary I.

I can run almost all 4E published adventures with just the Rules Compendium (and possibly Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium and the Monster Vault for the others), because Wizards don't insist you own all the books and have them at the table. Paizo does - and there are now a LOT of books they insist you bring to the table.

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Except that they totally don't. They put ALL the rules content of all their books online, so if you don't have a particular book for one monster/NPC you can print it out, or play from a laptop, or spend 5 minutes scribbling out the needed stats onto a sheet of paper.

Conversely, WotC assumes everything is core from the regular books to the Dragon articles. The only reason fewer books are needed is because monsters have separate rules and are reprinted in full.
Paizo could do that as well but it comes at the cost of adventure pages. It's a cost either way: either you loose dozens of pages in reprinted statblocks and content or you need extra books. Next time you look through an AP make a note of every page where a monster is just referenced and deduct 1/2 a page.

That said, I do hope they "call" the assumed books at some point. I think we've reached a saturation point and can manage with some optional content for a while. I'm happy to buy books but there's only so much I can integrate into my campaign.

MerricB said:

(snip) I can run almost all 4E published adventures with just the Rules Compendium (and possibly Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium and the Monster Vault for the others), because Wizards don't insist you own all the books and have them at the table. Paizo does - and there are now a LOT of books they insist you bring to the table. (snip)

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While I actually agree with you, I think the Paizo fans are going to have problems with the phrasing.

What you have said is that Paizo insists whereas - IMO - it's more a function of the Pathfinder RPG and the ruleset - 3.5E - it is based on.

Nevertheless, the outcome is still the same: it is less newbie-friendly and more difficult to manage the sheer quantity of information (even for those of us trained in Gygaxian disorganisation).

Fortunately, however, the Pathfinder Beginner Box rocks and that's definitely newbie-friendly.

gamerprinter said:

The same could be considered for a Pathfinder AP - why limit it?

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I agree - why limit it? There's a wealth of information to draw on for Pathfinder, and that Paizo does actually go back and use it is much to their credit.

The trouble I have is with the presentation - which, especially as I don't have a good mobile device - restricts me to carrying around a lot of bulky books.

MerricB said:

(snip) The trouble I have is with the presentation - which, especially as I don't have a good mobile device - restricts me to carrying around a lot of bulky books.

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One enormous advantage over 3.5E, thought, is that all of Paizo's rules stuff is OGL so at least you can freely and legally created a PDF, .doc or similar and bring the print out of all the stuff you need.

As for the lack of a good mobile device, I've never had the need for anything more than a laptop. I've had a couple of tablets as well but nothing matches the horsepower of the laptop when it comes to have many things open at once.