Why do people take such a big issue with spell banning?

Ahnehnois · Sep 23, 2012

[MENTION=6693711]slobster[/MENTION]
Communication is always critical. As someone who's been with the same group forever, I tend to assume that the communication side is already taken care of. But you're right on the level that if not everyone's on the same page or has the requisite level of trust to run a game, those issues take precedence over rules lawyer-y concerns or pretty much anything really.

In context, a player complaining about a spell ban might really be thinking "does this DM just hate us" or "does he have a clue". And the DM might indeed be acting inappropriately for a variety of reasons. My comments are intended for the case in which the DM is acting reasonably and the players know it. Getting to that point, developing that level of competence and understanding, is a foregone conclusion for me at this point, but only after many years of gaming; for others this might not be the case.

slobster · Sep 23, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
[MENTION=6693711]slobster[/MENTION]
Communication is always critical. As someone who's been with the same group forever, I tend to assume that the communication side is already taken care of. But you're right on the level that if not everyone's on the same page or has the requisite level of trust to run a game, those issues take precedence over rules lawyer-y concerns or pretty much anything really.

In context, a player complaining about a spell ban might really be thinking "does this DM just hate us" or "does he have a clue". And the DM might indeed be acting inappropriately for a variety of reasons. My comments are intended for the case in which the DM is acting reasonably and the players know it. Getting to that point, developing that level of competence and understanding, is a foregone conclusion for me at this point, but only after many years of gaming; for others this might not be the case.

I figured as much, and I hope I didn't come across as arguing with what you said. In fact, I agree 100%. I read your post and agreed, but wanted to add to it for those GMs reading who aren't lucky enough to game with the same group for so long!

airwalkrr · Sep 24, 2012

Dandu said:
Spellcasters who are not conjurers hate golems

In 3.5 and Pf, yes. But the OP didn't specify the system. He could be talking about AD&D or OD&D for all we know.

Dannyalcatraz · Sep 24, 2012

Transmuters who primarily buff their allies or Polymorph aren't exactly put out by golems, either.

Grogg of the North · Sep 24, 2012

I apologize if my thoughts are scattered. I've gone back and rewritten this several times before posting and I think what I'm trying to say has gotten lost in translation.

I think the biggest thing is differing assumptions on what is acceptable. When a player spends several sessions talking about how mechanic X is unbalanced and then builds a character all around that mechanic only to have it nerfed.

An example would be Balance in 3.5. I had a player that went on several times about how "nothing" had balance in several of the MM's and as class skills. Then proceeded to build a character that used that to his advantage with things like Freezing Fog and Grease.

I've played with players that believe if a rulebook offers some option, even if the rest of the group feels it would be unacceptable, they have to take it because if they didn't it would be breaking character.

Most problems can be resolved by communications. Talking with the group and GM about what you want to do. And if you can do it a level or two in advance, even better. Saying something "I'm thinking of adding X to my spell book, is that acceptable? Can I research it?" will save everyone a headache later.

Dandu · Sep 24, 2012

I think the biggest thing is differing assumptions on what is acceptable. When a player spends several sessions talking about how mechanic X is unbalanced and then builds a character all around that mechanic only to have it nerfed.

When a player does that, he has no right to complain if the mechanic gets rewritten.

Jackinthegreen · Sep 24, 2012

Players take issue with bans because they don't like having more limits set on them when facing challenges. They want options in case the ship hits the iceberg.

Treebore · Sep 24, 2012

I would only have a problem with out right banning a spell from the "core" book, such as the Players handbook, for most iterations of D&D. Spells from sources outside of that have always been optional in my opinion.

I also do not have a problem with altering spells even from the core book, because some are kind of over powered. I mean, look at how much Polymorph got changed officially, let alone in individual campaigns. I have tweaked the whole line of Teleport spells, myself, as well as Raise Dead, and a few others.

But to outright ban spells from the core book? Just a sign of a DM who cannot handle the game, in my experience as well as opinion. So as soon as I was to find out they had core spells on their ban list, I'd probably pass on joining their game. Then again, I am lucky in having plenty of GM's around who are capable of handling the game as intended, so I can afford to be picky.

Jacob Marley · Sep 24, 2012

Treebore said:
But to outright ban spells from the core book? Just a sign of a DM who cannot handle the game, in my experience as well as opinion. So as soon as I was to find out they had core spells on their ban list, I'd probably pass on joining their game. Then again, I am lucky in having plenty of GM's around who are capable of handling the game as intended, so I can afford to be picky.

You seem to be assuming that banning is occuring exclusively for power reasons as opposed to flavor or campaign reasons. For example, a game set in Dark Sun requires spells like Create Water to be banned. The alternative defeats the point of playing Dark Sun.

Ashtagon · Sep 24, 2012

Jacob Marley said:
You seem to be assuming that banning is occuring exclusively for power reasons as opposed to flavor or campaign reasons. For example, a game set in Dark Sun requires spells like Create Water to be banned. The alternative defeats the point of playing Dark Sun.

And yet create water is very definitely on the spell list for water priests in the original 2e rulebook (and again in the revised 2e rulebook).