D&D 5E If an option is presented, it needs to be good enough to take.

I know the Languages skill in 3E becomes the Linguist feat in 4e. What's the other one?

Ride -> Mounted Combat (well, Mounted Combat and Nature)/

1) Which is the antithesis of role-playing.

You just don't know how to use them. Apparently a structured approach to everyone working together doing different things to the same goal is the antithesis of roleplaying. Right.

All totally in your opinion, which i don't agree with.

You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts. Calling something "the antithesis of roleplaying" is a claim to a fact. Saying that they "can aid..." is a fact.

1) I find them a kludge (would not force it on children, actually, especially children).

2) Alas, I am aways the DM (never the bride, always the bridesmaid...*breaks into inconsolable sob*)

So you do have bad experiences with DMs and skill challenges if you think they are the antithesis of roleplaying rather than a structure that aids roleplaying in certain common circumstances. If you take that attitude you're never going to run a good one. And why are you always DM?
 

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Derren

Hero
You just don't know how to use them. Apparently a structured approach to everyone working together doing different things to the same goal is the antithesis of roleplaying. Right.

Yes, how can people not see that everyone picking their highest stat to constantly roll it in order to get an arbitrary number of successes before an arbitrary number of failures for every problem they encounter (which can't be solved by violence) is the epitome of role playing.
 

Obryn

Hero
Yes, how can people not see that everyone picking their highest stat to constantly roll it in order to get an arbitrary number of successes before an arbitrary number of failures for every problem they encounter (which can't be solved by violence) is the epitome of role playing.
Ah. I think I understand the problem. You think the skill challenge rules as presented in the DMG were an unplaytested monstrosity - and I agree! They were a good idea, but the implementation was poor, the math was execrable, and some of the advice was awful. (Including, "Ehh, just use any skill you want, they're all the same!" I'll allow for novel one-time uses, but there's actual skills that help more.)

It's not 2008 anymore. Nowadays, it's a good idea with strong math and solid execution. Advice in Dragon and Dungeon, the DMG2, and better adventures have come along since then.

I used one with a combat encounter recently, and it worked splendidly. The party needed to succeed on a number of Arcana checks (not "whatever is highest" - specifically Arcana) to break through a sorcerer-queen's defenses while her kuotagha were trying to strangle them to death. After 3 failures, even successes did damage to the arcanist. It added a lot of tension to the whole battle.

I've also used them for things like walking the Silt Road and Silt Reef outside Giustenal, crossing the Athasian wastes, and infiltrating Dregoth's palace. It really aids dramatic task resolution, both in and out of combat.

4e is a far, far better game today than it was on its release. If you don't want to know more about 4e than you did in 2007, it's fine, but if your only opinions of 4e are based on 2007/2008, then you're simply uninformed.

-O
 

B.T.

First Post
Here's how skill challenges should work:

1. DM decides consequences for failure. DM also marks down the results of mitigated failure. (Example: You will die of thirst in the desert. One success: You arrive fainting in town with 1 HP. Two successes: You are weak and have only half your full HP. And so on.)
2. Players describe how they are trying to avoid failure. (Example: I'm looking for an oasis, I'm trying to find a quicker path, I'm rationing our supplies, etc.)
3. DM decides what skill or stat the players roll (if any is needed; some actions might automatically succeed).
4. DM adjudicates results of skill challenge.

Here's how skill challenges end up working:

1. DM announces skill challenge.
2. Players look at character sheets for highest skill bonus and ask DM if they can use their skill.
3. DM says "yes" or "no," which largely determines success or failure.
4. Players pray they don't roll X success before Y failures.
5. Skill challenge over.
 

Here's how skill challenges should work:

1. DM decides consequences for failure. DM also marks down the results of mitigated failure. (Example: You will die of thirst in the desert. One success: You arrive fainting in town with 1 HP. Two successes: You are weak and have only half your full HP. And so on.)
2. Players describe how they are trying to avoid failure. (Example: I'm looking for an oasis, I'm trying to find a quicker path, I'm rationing our supplies, etc.)
3. DM decides what skill or stat the players roll (if any is needed; some actions might automatically succeed).
4. DM adjudicates results of skill challenge.

Here's how skill challenges end up working:

1. DM announces skill challenge.
2. Players look at character sheets for highest skill bonus and ask DM if they can use their skill.
3. DM says "yes" or "no," which largely determines success or failure.
4. Players pray they don't roll X success before Y failures.
5. Skill challenge over.

In my experience the first version is pretty close to how they end up working. Put the DMG 1 away and read the DMG 2 which goes through things like stages of success and stages of failure. And I've never seen a DM use your second example more than twice.

As [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] has just said, 4e in 2008 is a far inferior game to 4e in 2012.
 


pemerton

Legend
Yes, how can people not see that everyone picking their highest stat to constantly roll it in order to get an arbitrary number of successes before an arbitrary number of failures for every problem they encounter (which can't be solved by violence) is the epitome of role playing.
I don't think you've read the rules on skill challenges.

What the PHB says to players is:

Your DM sets the stage for a skill challenge by describing the obstacle you face and giving you some idea of the options you have in the encounter. Then you describe your actions and make checks until you either successfully complete the challenge or fail. (p 259)

It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face. (p 179)​

And to GMs, the DMG says:

Begin by describing the situation and defining the challenge. (p 74)

More so than perhaps any other kind of encounter, a skill challenge is defined by its context in an adventure… Define the goal of the challenge and what obstacles the characters face to accomplish that goal… You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results. (pp 72, 73)

When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it… In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no… This encourages players to think about the challenge in more depth… However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation… you should ask what exactly the character might be doing … Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge. (DMG pp 73, 75)​

I think this is all pretty straightforward. (The advice for setting DCs, on the other hand, remains wonky even through the Essentials books.) The GM describes a situation, the players describe how their PCs tackle it, checks are made based on that description, and the GM adjudicates the outcomes of those checks. This changes the situation. The players then engage the new situation via their PCs, until the challenge either is overcome or overcomes, and the situation is thereby resolved (at X successes or 3 failures).

There is nothing here about "picking the highest stat". Nor is there anything arbitrary about X successes before 3 failures. That is a pacing mechanic, as discussed in this thread.

Here's how skill challenges end up working:

1. DM announces skill challenge.
2. Players look at character sheets for highest skill bonus and ask DM if they can use their skill.
3. DM says "yes" or "no," which largely determines success or failure.
4. Players pray they don't roll X success before Y failures.
5. Skill challenge over.
That's not my experience, and seems to have little to do with what the rules describe (as quoted above).
 
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Mattachine

Adventurer
The DMG 2 of 4e changed my perspective on skill challenges, and helped me devise much better ones. Published adventures that came later in 4e did a good job with skill challenges, too.

I am all for roleplaying, but I don't want D&D to go back to this sort of rp interaction:

DM: You manage to track down the merchant's contact in the tavern
Player1: We go over, as a group, and talk to him.
(exchange of dialog, improv-acting, or 3rd-person description)
DM: Hmm . . . the contact isn't convinced to help you.
Player2: The party forms a semicircle around the contact to intimidate him.
DM: Hmm . . . um, sure, he's now intimidated.


Also, this interaction from 2nd-3rd edition to be problematic:

DM: You tracked down the merchant contact.
Player1: The party's rogue, with a high diplomacy skill, tries to convince the merchant to give the vital information.
(exchange of dialog, improv-acting, or 3rd-person description)
DM: Okay, roll, but I'll give +2 in your favor.
Player1: *rolls* Yuck, I rolled badly.
DM: Ah, well, the merchant is unconvinced.


I liked skill challenges, because when done well, it moves away complete DM arbitration, and also means that an important exchange is settled with more than one die roll.
 

The Choice

First Post
Change "good" to "fun", and I think you are right. Who's to say that taking an option that is suboptimal can't be fun?

I don't think anybody has any problem with suboptimal options being included in a rules system, I sure don't. I just want those options to be clearly labeled as such so that no player is tricked into taking it.
 

Mattachine

Adventurer
I don't think anybody has any problem with suboptimal options being included in a rules system, I sure don't. I just want those options to be clearly labeled as such so that no player is tricked into taking it.


If an character build/option/etc makes the character effectively less useful in combat, exploration, or both, it needs to be said.
 

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