D&D 5E Counterspell Idea

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
playing the dedicated counterspeller sounds about as exciting as playing the healbot, ...
Worse, in fact: at least the healbot always has a purpose (people always need healing) but a counterspeller is useless if there's no casters in the opposition.

That said, an effective counterspell as a spell (i.e. very limited use, and Vancian types need to memorize it ahead of time) is fine. I even took it a step further and invented a spell "Arcane Denial" (yes it's named after the Magic card) where if a target arcane caster fails a save she can't access arcane energy for a while - a round per level of the AD's caster, I think. She can still do everything else - use devices, weapons, move and think as normal, etc. - just not cast arcane spells. If she does save she's immune to that same person's Arcane Denial for the rest of that day; so a caster can't keep trying it till it works.

Lanefan
 

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Li Shenron

Legend
I like the idea of counterspelling, and I think the 3ed rules were more complicated than worth, and usually made counterspelling increadibly hard to pull off. Hence I'd like some brainstorming on how to make it simpler, usable but not overpowered.

My starting point would be: how about just making Dispel Magic allowed to be cast as a reaction, when specifically targetting a spell being cast?

(i.e. not when dispelling an existing ongoing effect, or when targetting an area, or when targetting a creature to try and dispel any magical effects it has active on itself...)
 

slobo777

First Post
I quite like the idea of "magic battle" that would be something casters on both sides could put actions/resources into, and it might be a way to fend off save-or-die effects on either side.

I do see a problem with that idea though - NPCs are often single power source (all casters, or all non-casters), so allowing magic v magic conflicts to be deciding in addition to regular spell effects would make things very swingy.

Perhaps it could play along with the current spell limitation mechanics, and inspired by Protect:

Suggestion for the effect: A level 1 Counterspell effect interferes with spells cast on you or any of your allies within 20 feet. You may choose one of: +5 to effective max hit points, reduce the damage done by an attack spell by 5, or grant advantage to saves versus level 1 or lower spell effects.
. . . just brainstorming - not sure whether this should be a reaction like Protect? The choice of effect is necessary, because spells have multiple ways to target and hurt you. I'm not so sure about access to it, but I'd probably make a Wizard dedicate a spell slot to this in some way. It's not as powerful as simply cancelling a spell though, so you should get more than one use of it.
 

slobster

Hero
That said, an effective counterspell as a spell (i.e. very limited use, and Vancian types need to memorize it ahead of time) is fine. I even took it a step further and invented a spell "Arcane Denial"

Yeah, that spell seems like it would work out because it doesn't turn someone who prepares it into a dedicated counterspeller. You cast it, resolve it, then go back to being a mage. You aren't forced to expend all your actions to shut down an enemy mage.

I mean, I probably wouldn't include it in my games out of balance concerns, but it sounds like it worked well for yours and that's good. It's another point against the idea of having devoted counterspell mages who spend all their time with two islands untapped, daring the enemies to cast something expensive. :)
 

bogmad

First Post
My starting point would be: how about just making Dispel Magic allowed to be cast as a reaction, when specifically targetting a spell being cast?
Bam. Simplest solution. Easy to implement. If you want to make it a little less cut and dry, make it where using dispell magic in that manner results in a contest between the two casters to see if the spell is dispelled or not. No additional rules or mechanics needed.

EDIT (one addition): And it's easy enough with the flexibility of the system so far for a DM to rule that a powerful caster might gain advantage in such a contest against a weaker foe.
 
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GameDoc

Explorer
Bam. Simplest solution. Easy to implement. If you want to make it a little less cut and dry, make it where using dispell magic in that manner results in a contest between the two casters to see if the spell is dispelled or not. No additional rules or mechanics needed.

EDIT (one addition): And it's easy enough with the flexibility of the system so far for a DM to rule that a powerful caster might gain advantage in such a contest against a weaker foe.

Yep. That's going on my list of suggestions for the next playtest survey.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Bam. Simplest solution. Easy to implement. If you want to make it a little less cut and dry, make it where using dispell magic in that manner results in a contest between the two casters to see if the spell is dispelled or not. No additional rules or mechanics needed.

EDIT (one addition): And it's easy enough with the flexibility of the system so far for a DM to rule that a powerful caster might gain advantage in such a contest against a weaker foe.

Yeah I think that some "contest" roll would be interesting, so that the success is not automatic. I guess that there is quite a popular image in fantasy of two wizards' spells "clashing" against each other until one of them surpasses the other.

Of course some balance consideration would be needed...
 

GameDoc

Explorer
Yeah I think that some "contest" roll would be interesting, so that the success is not automatic. I guess that there is quite a popular image in fantasy of two wizards' spells "clashing" against each other until one of them surpasses the other.

Of course some balance consideration would be needed...

The most iconic image of this to me is from Conan the Destroyer - the scene where Akiro and Thoth-Amon are wizard dueling over a door. No flash or explosions. Thoth tries to close the door magically and Akiro makes a magical gesture and stares at it to try and keep it open, groaning and squinting from the effort.
 

Ainamacar

Adventurer
My starting point would be: how about just making Dispel Magic allowed to be cast as a reaction, when specifically targetting a spell being cast?

Bam. Simplest solution. Easy to implement. If you want to make it a little less cut and dry, make it where using dispell magic in that manner results in a contest between the two casters to see if the spell is dispelled or not. No additional rules or mechanics needed.

This has merits, but it probably does not handle extended contests between casters nor the almost certain action denial abilities of multiple casters vs. a single one. This is a critical issue to address because trading an action to deny an action is not, in general, the even trade it appears to be. At the very least the overall contribution of an action to the outcome of a combat must be weighted with what a creature can accomplish with an action, and also its relative contribution to the total ability of one side of the conflict. For example, if 20 weak creatures are fighting 4 strong ones in an otherwise fair fight (i.e. ignoring the action denial abilities in question each side is equally likely to win) it is clear that the worth of 1 action is not equivalent between sides. A contest can be used to help balance out the difference in weight from one creature to another, but it takes no consideration at all of the relative contribution to either side's overall power. If the weak creature has a 20% chance to deny a strong creature's action then in this scenario on average it will be an even trade. The same counterspeller vs. the same caster in a different scenario, however, might have a drastically different cost-benefit analysis.

I'm not saying the game must be written so that the relative contribution of action-denying abilities must adhere to even trades. After all, so much of the emergent tactical depth comes from trying to use these considerations to one's advantage, especially as combat ebbs and flows. Moreover, I want an isolated action that involves only a subset of creatures to have the same distribution of outcomes whenever that same subset is affected, regardless of who else may be in the battle. What I am saying is that I would like the game to be more robust to different numbers of combatants vis-à-vis action economy. This not only mechanically, but with respect to the metagame effects of loss of creature agency, which can have an outsized impact on player enjoyment. A robust game will make sure that the tactically sound options for creatures also tend to increase (or maintain) player engagement. Occasional action loss can be salutary, while frequent action loss trains players to leave the table and grab a frosty beverage. Furthermore, fighting the rules rather than simply using them places a larger burden on the DM, which can negatively influence the game in unpredictable ways.

By leveraging a spell one also introduces quite different counterspelling capabilities depending on who is doing it. That isn't necessarily bad, these differences might be interesting rather than unfortunate, but the secondary effects need consideration. For example, a spontaneous caster will probably be a significantly more flexible counterspeller than a Vancian caster. It would not shock me if at-will dispel magic makes an appearance somewhere in the game, either. It also means creatures without spells that might perform tasks equivalent to counterspelling would need their own methods, reducing the universality of the method.

Finally, it means that counterspelling is a thing that turns on at 5th level or so, and maybe later in practice because at 5th level that spell slot might be the single most valuable resource the creature has. This feels a bit uneven to me within the fiction and also mechanically because the action economy, the principle target of this form of counterspelling, is present in its basic form throughout the entire game. In other words, if counterspelling as action denial is mechanically fine at 5th level, it is probably also fine at 1st level.

Now, dispel magic is a really great choice for some form of counterspelling, I won't deny that. I'm not convinced, however, that it makes a compelling backbone for the same. Of course, I haven't offered a mechanically specific compelling alternative either, so this post emphasizes the "criticism" part of constructive criticism a bit more than I'd like.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
This has merits, but it probably does not handle extended contests between casters nor the almost certain action denial abilities of multiple casters vs. a single one.

Definitely not, but I think it's probably for the best to stay simple, to provide a mechanic that is usable by every gaming group*.

Then eventually the concept can be expanded with a tiny module / optional rules to handle more complicated scenario.

*At least in my experience, few people in 3e used the counterspelling rules just because using them was not worth the effort of learning the mechanic. Only if you wanted to explore the concept and build some kind of specialist around it...

Personally I think this is a general problem in the 3e approach: too many topics were addressed with countless "what if?" questions which lead the designers to add too many modifiers, too many rules detail, too many steps (grappling!), too many exceptions, too many circumstances... It's all good for a group who loves the details, but it's a nightmare for others.
 

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