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Thursday, 4th October, 2012, 07:29 AM #91
Enchanter (Lvl 12)
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Thursday, 4th October, 2012, 09:39 AM #92
The Great Druid (Lvl 17)
Lan-"5e's core should be simpler to pick up and play than D&D Basic was"-efan
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Thursday, 4th October, 2012, 09:46 AM #93
Enchanter (Lvl 12)
Thursday, 4th October, 2012, 10:58 AM #94
Guide (Lvl 11)
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ø Ignore airwalkrr
I believe the best remedy to this situation is to allow spells to be useful at all levels, but have spells limit their usefulness at higher levels. Let us use the sleep spell from 3.5 as a bad example and color spray as a good example.
Color spray will incapacitate low HD creatures, but become less debilitating the more HD the target has. At the upper end of HD, the target is at minimum stunned on a failed save. Not debilitating, but still useful. Meanwhile sleep is essentially save or lose if you have less than 5 HD. And virtually useless once 5 HD or more creatures become your only opponents. The solution? Sleep has three tiers of effects. 1-2 HD creatures fall asleep on a failed save and become exhausted on a successful save. 3-4 HD creatures are exhausted on a failed save and fatigued on a failed save. 5+ HD creatures are fatigued on a failed save and unaffected on a successful save. Or to keep things simpler, a save negates the effect.
I haven't read the latest packet yet (too busy with school), but let me propose the following idea. Charm person allows a saving throw at 25 hp or less but even a successful save makes the target more inclined to listen to your character, perhaps granting advantage on all social rolls. At 26+ hp a failed save grants advantage on all social rolls, but a successful save negates the effect. So charm person remains useful, but is less useful as opponents get tougher in the same way a magic missile spell does less damage proportionally as time goes on.
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Friday, 5th October, 2012, 05:29 PM #95
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
As for you second point, no, quite the opposite -- magic outpaced skills much more in previous editions because "skills" (non-magical competencies) were so uneven and anemic.
On your third point, I am not an expert on 4e, but its seems correct to me. However I would note that 3e is much faster paced in terms of rounds to resolve a combat, but as there was more fiddly-ness in the system it was not necessarily vastly different in table time to resolve entire combats.
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Stone Bear: “Hungry pets.”
Friday, 5th October, 2012, 06:16 PM #96
It seems to me that it is a good thing that the designers are working on ways around the "save or suck" dilemma this early in the play test. I get the impression that they just through this out there and are more looking at the 'big picture' of magic in the system (vancian, non-vancian, how to set the dials) than hammering away at these details right now. Just a few points:
1) Lower level spells should become less and less useful against higher level adversaries, especially save or suck spells. This is part of what caused the whole quadratic wizard, linear fighter meme. Depending on how the bounded accuracy model works in practice, lower level spells may still retain more usefulness even without auto scaling. I haven't heard it talked about it recently, but they did mention preparing a spell in a higher level slot being necessary to get a scaling effect. It might be that preparing a spell in a higher level slot will increase the HP threshold (if that is what they go with) or allow an increase in area of effect or impose more debilitating conditions.
2) I don't really have a problem with Hit Points giving fighter types an advantage in resisting 'mind magic' over your more cerebral spell slinging types. This parallels the high saving throw progression fighters had in earlier editions of the game and gives them a much needed boost. Besides, wizard types will presumably have better saving throws in this area when spells grant one, somewhat evening out the fighter advantage.