D&D 5E Why the HP Threshold on Spells is a Bad Idea

Li Shenron · Sep 24, 2012

Chris_Nightwing said:
Low-level spells should not remain useful at high levels. High level spellcasters shouldn't have low level spells at all. Let's defeat the mighty Wizard Quadratix please!

Not in D&D, thank you.

Play a sorcerer, or allow a Sorcerer-like spell-points system on top of the Wizard if you still want vancian magic, and you'll have high-level spells only if you want.

Leave the traditional low-level spells to everybody else who still like them.

Jeff Carlsen · Sep 24, 2012

If I recall correctly, only Charm and Command are linked to maximum hit points. Every other spell with a hit point threshold is linked to current hit points. In the first playtest, even Charm and Command were this way, but some people had a problem with this in non-combat situation, because then to charm a guard or barkeep, it was best to beat on them first.

I agree, though, that the max HP threshold isn't quite right. I also agree that it could lead to metagaming. To mitigate that, I propose that the HP threshold should always be random. Say, instead of 20 hit points, it's 2d6 + 10 hit points. This way, there is a wide area wherein a spell may or may not work.

keterys · Sep 24, 2012

Li Shenron said:
Leave the traditional low-level spells to everybody else who still like them.

I'm not sure they can and meet their goalset... and, to be fair, many traditional low level spells stop being useful. Sleep being a particularly good example of that, but burning hands really just isn't impressive at much higher level, at all. Cure light wounds was really inadequate healing that only stayed relevant due to a complete paucity of other options and that you could toss it outside of combat by the handful.

3E was more of an aberration in D&D's history by making things like Shield, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc something you'd potentially use _long_ into your career, with metamagic even making things crazier.

Chris_Nightwing · Sep 24, 2012

Li Shenron said:
Not in D&D, thank you.

Play a sorcerer, or allow a Sorcerer-like spell-points system on top of the Wizard if you still want vancian magic, and you'll have high-level spells only if you want.

Leave the traditional low-level spells to everybody else who still like them.

Would you accept a system in which traditional 'low-level' spells could be prepared in higher level slots, and thus became more powerful, and in which spell slots migrated to higher levels rather than continually increased?

billd91 · Sep 24, 2012

keterys said:
3E was more of an aberration in D&D's history by making things like Shield, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc something you'd potentially use _long_ into your career, with metamagic even making things crazier.

Oh, I don't think so. Mage armor and shield were pretty effective long into a career back in 1e (once mage armor appears in Unearthed Arcana). Ray of enfeeblement only got tricky because it was harder to get powerful opponents to fail their saves.

billd91 · Sep 24, 2012

Chris_Nightwing said:
That would sort of defeat the point of spell levels no? If low-level spells were as useul as high-level spells at high level. I'd be happy with that, sign me up.

They don't have to be as effective in total or raw power or even scope. If I want to enchantment my way past the sentry, why should I have to trot out dominate person, charm monster, or mass charm when a simple charm person - limited to single humanoid targets - may suffice?

Kinak · Sep 24, 2012

steenan said:
HP threshold would be fine for me (even more: would be my favorite spell design pattern) if:
- thresholds were compared to current, not maximum, HP
- thresholds were randomized, not constant
- each spell had at least a minor effect on targets above the threshold

This sounds perfect to me.

It reminds me a bit of finishing moves from Wicked Fantasy Factory (a Goodman Games line from back in the 3.5 days, not sure if it's still around). If I recall correctly, you rolled 1d6 per level and if that was greater than the target's hit points, you killed the target in whatever brutal manner fit your character.

Anyway, I think something along the lines of what you're describing would be the best save or die system I've seen. It lets hit points matter while preserving enough chance that it feels interactive and metagaming seems less appealing, in my opinion.

Cheers!
Kinak

billd91 · Sep 24, 2012

Chris_Nightwing said:
Would you accept a system in which traditional 'low-level' spells could be prepared in higher level slots, and thus became more powerful, and in which spell slots migrated to higher levels rather than continually increased?

My gut reaction is that's a lot harder to balance than you might think. In the traditional D&D system, even though the casters are getting more and more spell slots they can cast, there are always a limited number of the newest high level spells while plenty of other slots are populated by spells of smaller scope and power.

Cut the number of spell slots but migrate them into higher levels and you'll probably get a higher number of spells overall at the highest level of power. For example, if you limit the caster to 10 slots but move them up a spell level every time a new level becomes available, suddenly you have a PC with 10 9th level spells as soon as he qualifies for them. In the old system, he'd have a lot more spells but only 1 9th level spell on top of 2 8th, 3 7th, and so on. And don't even try to balance the play styles between the power gamer filling them all up with the highest level spells he can and the more moderate player who takes a 1st level charm person so he can charm his way past single gatekeepers and get what he wants.

GreyICE · Sep 24, 2012

billd91 said:
My gut reaction is that's a lot harder to balance than you might think. In the traditional D&D system, even though the casters are getting more and more spell slots they can cast, there are always a limited number of the newest high level spells while plenty of other slots are populated by spells of smaller scope and power.

Cut the number of spell slots but migrate them into higher levels and you'll probably get a higher number of spells overall at the highest level of power. For example, if you limit the caster to 10 slots but move them up a spell level every time a new level becomes available, suddenly you have a PC with 10 9th level spells as soon as he qualifies for them. In the old system, he'd have a lot more spells but only 1 9th level spell on top of 2 8th, 3 7th, and so on. And don't even try to balance the play styles between the power gamer filling them all up with the highest level spells he can and the more moderate player who takes a 1st level charm person so he can charm his way past single gatekeepers and get what he wants.

So then limit the number of spells at max level you can learn and have higher level slots replace lower level slots, kind of a rolling average thing (you can let lower level spells be memorized in higher level slots, possibly with some sort of benefit, but maybe not).

I mean at that point you've made the wizard into the AED system without E powers (and apparently those have gotten patched back in). In the old system the Wizard was pure D - which, as I'm fond of saying, meant a mid level wizard was an odd combination of broken and boring - mostly you were wasting time until the end of combat, but that end could be preordained by what you did in the first round.

Li Shenron · Sep 24, 2012

Chris_Nightwing said:
Would you accept a system in which traditional 'low-level' spells could be prepared in higher level slots, and thus became more powerful, and in which spell slots migrated to higher levels rather than continually increased?

It's not so much a matter of accepting it... if it's option that I can ignore and still play a traditional Wizard, that's fine for me. But your previous post sounded quite a lot like you want to totally change how it works for everyone.