D&D 5E Why the HP Threshold on Spells is a Bad Idea

GreyICE · Sep 26, 2012

Lanefan said:
That's just it.

Using your analogy of the D&D system as a car, I don't want to be sold a car at all.

I want to be sold a frame, some wheels, an engine, and a bunch of other more or less useful parts that will more or less fit with each other and with the wheels-frame-engine; and then build my own damn car.

Lan-"I"m a highway star"-efan

Meh, I've come to realize this is a fundamental difference between me and simulationists. I want to tell a story, have a fun experience, and create memorable sessions. I don't particularly want to wander around in tables and charts caring about what should happen if I roll a 16-21 on a d100 chart and then being told for more realistic encounters I can add in the optional wound allocation chart on page 479.

To me systems exist to facilitate the story being told. I've realized that to others the system is the story, but I have to admit that if that's the approach of Next, I'm walking away.

There's so much feeling of liberation in using a system that just works.

(I tend to think of cars as things that get me from point A to point B, not things I take apart on weekends for fun, this probably has a lot to do with that)

Manbearcat · Sep 26, 2012

I think something like this might be a good place for the "dial".

Option 1 - "Bloodied"

This option presupposes that PCs are .005 percent-ers (or less). They are potential "heroes of destiny" amidst the common fold. The condition assumes that the first portion (50%, 75 %, what have you - further dial) of a PC's HP pool is primarily a derivation of divine intervention, luck, skill/acumen; "plot armor". The second portion (50%, 25 %, what have you - further dial) of HPs is primarily (but not fully) composed of "meat". This condition is the threshold qualifier for the PC to be susceptible to certain potent spells/effects. "The common fold" (and general monsters) being "the common fold" are afforded no such "plot armor" and therefore no such threshold qualifier. They are always susceptible to all spells/effects. HP loss for them is all "meat." Therefore, there is no "plot armor" threshold for them to overcome. A hit with a weapon attack crushes, rends, etc flesh and a hit with a fire attack sears, burns, etc flesh. This dial could afford "villains of significance" (solos, elites, what have you) the same "plot armor."

Option 2 - "You are not a special and unique snowflake"

The first rule of HPs as a derivation of divine intervention, luck, skill/acumen; "plot armor" is that you do not talk about HPs as a derivation of divine intervention, luck, skill/acumen; "plot armor". Because they are meat. I suppose. Which causes all kinds of problems but ok. There you have it. Your potency and ability to withstand attacks is a product of your level (and your accrued HPs, acumen, defenses, "stuff" that comes with level). No "otherworldly" plot protection (...except increased HPs...that represent...more meat?...while you stay 5'10" 170 lbs...I don't know...don't ask me...this is all you) afforded to any PCs or BBEGs. Gods don't care about you. You have to consider the possibility that Gods don't like you. They never wanted you. In all probability, they hate you. This isn't the worst thing that could happen to you. At least you're not a scrubby nerfherder like Luke might have been if he would have been stuck another season on the farm and never stumbled upon those droids.

Option 3 - "And now for something completely different"

Something completely different that works off of a new mechanic outside of the purview of HPs or level and doesn't interact with attributes...but is effectively the same domain - eg; you get more powerful and gain more "not plot protection" as a product of it and by proxy are able to withstand more attacks.

GreyICE · Sep 26, 2012

The problem with trying to nail down how much hit points are meat is that its not dependent on the players. Or the setting. It's dependent on the enemies.

Take a 20' tall steel golem. There's no sane or sensible way a humanoid with roughly human physiology survives a direct blow from a fist. Each fist weighs on the order of 2,000 lbs to 10,000 lbs (depending on exact scaling). I've seen empty steel frames that weighed 800 lbs.

That hits you dead on, you be dead son. So the PCs "HP" are them getting hit from glancing blows, narrowly dodging something that leaves them rattled and off-base, getting knocked around by the force of the impact hitting the turf. There's no 'just nicked me a little.'

So either steel golems can one-shot people (at which point your lethality setting is up to "world of darkness" and combat is lol) or you accept HP definitions change based on the situation.

Lanefan · Sep 26, 2012

GreyICE said:
Meh, I've come to realize this is a fundamental difference between me and simulationists. I want to tell a story, have a fun experience, and create memorable sessions.

Same here...which can be done while still at least making an attempt at simulation. It just depends on the level of detail one wants to simulate, is all.

GreyICE said:
(I tend to think of cars as things that get me from point A to point B, not things I take apart on weekends for fun, this probably has a lot to do with that)

I feel the same way about cars.

D&D, on the other hand, *is* something I take apart on weekends for fun. Sometimes I even remember to put it back together before the players show up for the session.

More seriously, while the game system I run/play is based on 1e there's no part of it we haven't changed/mutilated/folded/stapled/kitbashed/rebuilt, to the point now where the original Players' Handbook has become redundant.

Lan-"owner of a +3 Hammer of Kitbashing"-efan

Manbearcat · Sep 26, 2012

GreyICE said:
The problem with trying to nail down how much hit points are meat is that its not dependent on the players. Or the setting. It's dependent on the enemies.

I'm sure you're referring to option 1 and, assuming that is the case, I agree. But I think you sense that I'm trying to nail it down hard and fast when I'm not. I'm just ball-parking an already abstract concept (HP and what % and when is meat, divine favor, luck, proficiency, etc) and the players can resolve the fiction however they wish. Its a "little less nebulousness" ensconced in an "already nebulous" interpretation for the sake of mechanical expediency. Nothing more. Option 1 is my preferred option and I'll narrate it how I see fit based on fictional context.

Clearly something "meat-centric or meat-relevant" happens when your HP gets down to critical levels as that is when you are consistently at risk of going down. Therefore, logically (and it has been stated by devs in the past and I believe Gygax himself), there is a critical threshold of HPs (25 %, 10 %, whatever). Yes, it is "of-level threat relevant". But the game mechanics of percentages, specifically when you're referring to "save or suck" or "save or die" effects will generally be "of-level threat relevant." You're very likely never going to be teetering around 50 % HPs (or definitely 25 %) when you're fighting "below-level threats." They will be walk-over encounters so you won't be at-risk of suffering ill effects that those "below-level threats" may administer due to the % HP threshold/plot armor mechanic. Further, those "below-level effects" coming from "below-level threats" shouldn't be particularly punitive (or shouldn't be if the threats are balanced correctly) relative to your PC's expected level of performance within the HP ablation and action economy mechanics.

Simply put, if properly balanced, the 50 % threshold is a number that will invariably come into play when you're fighting L + 1 - 2 encounters and 25 % will often come into play when you're fighting L + 3 - 5. Further, the punitive effects that you may endure should be "threat-level relevant", so again, they should be balanced.

GreyICE · Sep 26, 2012

But again, how do you explain surviving multiple hits by a steel golem if there's any meat involved? Only the blow that takes someone down should be meat-centric (and as for the Warlord healing that, he yells "you mean one hit is enough to take you down? BACK ON YOUR FEET SOLDIER!" and the character blinks away the blood and concussion and staggers back to their feet to fight on).

Manbearcat · Sep 26, 2012

GreyICE said:
But again, how do you explain surviving multiple hits by a steel golem if there's any meat involved? Only the blow that takes someone down should be meat-centric (and as for the Warlord healing that, he yells "you mean one hit is enough to take you down? BACK ON YOUR FEET SOLDIER!" and the character blinks away the blood and concussion and staggers back to their feet to fight on).

I don't disagree with you here. At all. You seem to be arguing against a position that I'm not taking, nor would I ever take. I don't explain "surviving multiple hits by a steel golem if there's any meat involved?" I wouldn't depict it within the fiction as such. The bloodied condition (and any derivative thereof) doesn't demand that 1/2 HPs is 100 % meat/flesh downward to zero. Its just a mechanical resolution tool that leverages an abstraction (50 % HP pool within an abstraction (HP pool) whereby you can/should depict subsequent HP ablation within the fiction within context.

I think perhaps you're attributing too strong of a rigid interpretation of my "meat-centric/meat-relevant" term than I'm meaning. I thought the "quotations" and the "centric" would illicit the intensity of the looseness of interpretation that I was meaning. Perhaps not. I merely meant that you're more likely to have "physical implications to the resolved mechanical resolution roll (and accompanying narrative interpretation of the results) than at the top of the HP pool."

If you're fighting a Steel Golem, its entirely likely that you're going to want to narrate HP ablation, until the last terminal blow, as divine favor, luck, proficiency at dodging, etc. That doesn't undermine the use of a mechanical resolution tool that basically says "the last 50/25% of HPs is roughly/likely/kinda more likely to have physical implications - meat-centric - than the former bit"...and subsequently allows you to prevent outright "game-breaking" save or suck/die effects (while at 100 % HPs) while allowing you to use that abstraction in whatever narrative way you deem fitting.

If you're saying that HPs are absurd. Ok. No disagreement there. That doesn't prevent you from constructing further resolution tools around their absurd abstraction while distilling a wee bit of likely percentages of "goings-ons" from that abstraction...but with healthy caveats...and no hand-cuffing strictures.

billd91 · Sep 26, 2012

GreyICE said:
But again, how do you explain surviving multiple hits by a steel golem if there's any meat involved? Only the blow that takes someone down should be meat-centric (and as for the Warlord healing that, he yells "you mean one hit is enough to take you down? BACK ON YOUR FEET SOLDIER!" and the character blinks away the blood and concussion and staggers back to their feet to fight on).

Yeah, I'd say that's too narrow a definition of the "meat" being involved. It's a bit to focused on blood spraying, Sam Peckinpah-style scene. If the golem hits your blocking shield or weapon so hard it makes part of your arm go numb - that's the meat. If you feel some shock through your armor (though you give thanks it didn't get rent by the blow), that's the meat. If you manage to avoid the worse of the blow but get knocked about by the golem's elbow, that's the meat. If you again manage to avoid the worse of the blow but feel a twinge in your back or hamstring, again, that's the meat.

Bluenose · Sep 26, 2012

billd91 said:
Yeah, I'd say that's too narrow a definition of the "meat" being involved. It's a bit to focused on blood spraying, Sam Peckinpah-style scene. If the golem hits your blocking shield or weapon so hard it makes part of your arm go numb - that's the meat. If you feel some shock through your armor (though you give thanks it didn't get rent by the blow), that's the meat. If you manage to avoid the worse of the blow but get knocked about by the golem's elbow, that's the meat. If you again manage to avoid the worse of the blow but feel a twinge in your back or hamstring, again, that's the meat.

Funnily, that "part of your arm goes numb" and "twinge in your back" require a lot more healing than the nearly fatal blow that you took from an orc when you were a lot less experienced. You'd think it would be the other way around.

billd91 · Sep 26, 2012

Bluenose said:
Funnily, that "part of your arm goes numb" and "twinge in your back" require a lot more healing than the nearly fatal blow that you took from an orc when you were a lot less experienced. You'd think it would be the other way around.

Funnily, the game system takes care of a lot of that by substantially increasing your healing rate as you level.