D&D 5E There are zero incarnations of swarm rules that I don't hate.

Ratinyourwalls said:

More than one swarm in an encounter translates to "Do you have a controller/swordmage/dragonborn in the party? If yes -> Free pass to this encounter, if no -> Have fun with the clustergrind!"

Minions and swarms together can make for a great balls to the wall henchman mobfest battle, better at doing so than any prior edition, but it's still a head ache of 20 rolls per round and "use AOE or die!!!" mess.

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Yes, but by the same token the Wizard and Sorcerer have the right to feel cool too.

Basically, there's a lot of ways to make combat grindy, and one very good one is include a critical mass of ANY specialized type of monster. Swarms, monsters with resists, etc.

2 on-level swarms as standards make the AOE blasters feel nice and useful, and also emphasize teamwork. If there's literally nothing of the sort in the PCs arsenal, the DM probably should thing strongly about not including them.

If, on the other hand, the PCs mismanaged the combat and managed to have the sorcerer knocked out early and on the ropes useless the entire time, well, that's the price you pay~

Swarms, with their auto-damage auras, nasty penalties, and cool abilities never felt grindy to me. Mostly, extremely frightening (their damage output when surrounded can get very nuts).

GreyICE said:

Swarms, with their auto-damage auras, nasty penalties, and cool abilities never felt grindy to me. Mostly, extremely frightening (their damage output when surrounded can get very nuts).

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Yup. Agreed. Aura damage with - 2 defenses (meaning you really, really would like to get out of the aura) + swarm being difficult terrain (meaning getting out of the aura is going to often trigger an OA) + OA causing prone (and possible nasty triggered effect) = horrible Catch 22. See more on that here http://www.enworld.org/forum/6026548-post71.html

Ratinyourwalls said:

More than one swarm in an encounter translates to "Do you have a controller/swordmage/dragonborn in the party? If yes -> Free pass to this encounter, if no -> Have fun with the clustergrind!"

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Thanks for the elaboration.

GreyICE said:

Basically, there's a lot of ways to make combat grindy, and one very good one is include a critical mass of ANY specialized type of monster.

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2 on-level swarms as standards make the AOE blasters feel nice and useful, and also emphasize teamwork. If there's literally nothing of the sort in the PCs arsenal, the DM probably should thing strongly about not including them.

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I have run encounters where the principal enemies are swarms - which suits the wizard, sorcerer and close-burst fighter fine! The paladin also has enough AoE attacks to handle swarms, including Strength of Ten (from Questing Knight paragon path) which creates an awesome image of one holy warrior with the strength of 10 ordinary knights pushing back an onrushing hobgoblin phalanx. The ranger likes swarms the least, but brings out either his cleric AoEs (he's a hybrid) or his flameburst bow.

I find to reduce the sense of grindness to combat, swarm or not, it helps if the DM keeps on describing the situation with each character involved and perhaps even adlibs to keep things interesting and different. For instance as the rats swarm over the mage, his belt pouch is loosened in the struggle, and his components or coins drop to the floor. Perhaps a rat finds its way onto the bow of the ranger, causing him to use a minor action to fling it across the room or risk it crawling up onto his arm. Also providing for various PC options not stipulated in their power/feats - like the paladin kneeling with his shield in front of him ready to "scoop up" some of the oncoming rats hurling them back to whence they came to buy the rest of party some time to escape. Keeps the players immersed in the encounter - anything really that breaks the monotony of continuous die rolling for the sake of die rolling.