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Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 12:32 AM #91
Cutpurse (Lvl 5)
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Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 03:15 AM #92
The Great Druid (Lvl 17)
Take for example, mathematics. If you aren't naturally somewhat gifted at mathematics (or nutured very early--we don't know 100% how that works), then you won't be a great mathematician. You might be a very good one. But if you don't work hard at mathematics, then you for sure will never be even passable at upper level mathematics, regardless of talent. Training is far more important for competence up to a certain fairly high point. Talent is worthless without it. It's only when you get to the point where training has been pushed near the limits that Talent again begins to tell. And that doesn't even touch something like software development which is typically a whole host of skills pushed not individually to their limits, but the synthesis of those skills developed to some lesser degree.
I've played around with this idea in skill systems, and it becomes more intractable the more you dig. A human "realistic" skill system would:
Now, whether or not that is worth doing, it is impossible to do it with something like ability mod + skill adjustment, or similar systems, no matter how much people tap dance around it and pull some misdirection with flavor.
- Distinguish between core skills/talents versus synthesized ones made up of many of those core skills/talents.
- Give talented naturals the edge against less talented beings when they are shy of some skill threshold, then have training dominate through the middle, then have "high skill+great talent" trump "high skill+less talent" on the upper range.
- Have all kinds of ways for complicated abilities to cross boundaries that are a lot more sophisticated than "Dex" or "Int".
Last edited by Crazy Jerome; Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012 at 03:19 AM.
Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 03:53 AM #93
Lama (Lvl 13)
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° Block Greg K
What may not be useful in your game does not hold true in other games. Come to my games or those of people I know and many of your "adventuring" skills may see less use then many "non adventuring" skills.
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Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 04:27 AM #94
Guide (Lvl 11)
Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 04:52 AM #95
Minor Trickster (Lvl 4)
In my suggestion, I stated a certain way of understanding and using skills because it allows to (relatively) logically integrate what I consider to be the 3 aspects of a PC's personal history: race, background and class.
Having said that, your "mathematics" example would be better reflected, game-wise, as a skill that's simply unusable if untrained. No matter what your IQ, if you haven't at least minimum training, you can't even attempt to differentiate (is that the way to say it in english? you know, dx/dy ... ).
Again, it's a simplification. But it's: 1) coherent; 2) easily implemented; 3) easily understood...
Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 05:49 AM #96
Orcus on an Off-Day (Lvl 22)
What's going to have to happen I think is that there will need to be a very good reason why most people will WANT to have Craft and Perform in the game. Beyond just helping to "describe" your character, because as they said in 4E... you can be a blacksmith without needing a bunch of skill ranks in blacksmith. Especially if there's barely any skill checks to be rolled that involve blacksmithing.
Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 08:11 AM #97
Greater Elemental (Lvl 23)
Hence my view that "balance", to the extent that it matters here, is to be achieved via the GM using the right approach in adjudication.
Or conversely, if having the ability to recognise those things is just what having those skills means, then do what Rolemaster (for example) tends to do, and give the fighter training in those skills.
Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 08:14 AM #98
Greater Elemental (Lvl 23)
The problem with this is, again, the d20. No one's maxmimum jump varies between 3' and 13'. And no Olympian, capable of jumping 29', loses 10' on his/her maximum one time in twenty. Variations are measured in inches, not feet.Originally Posted by tuxgeo;6024254Carl Lewis has jumped farther than 29 feet (8.87 m) legally.
Training should count for something.
One possibility is this: STR score [B
As with surgery, so with professional athletics: if you want a skill system to measure it, the 3E/4e style one is not what you're looking for.
Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 09:06 AM #99
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
On a small nerdy detail, long jumps do vary quite a bit, typically 1-2 feet between attempts, which is why the athletes in that event are allowed three attempts and take the best* - it evens out the randomness. And the same effect occurs in extended skill tests with multiple rolls - it would be one way to reward high skills (but rather a boring one if the focus is on one ability of the characters).
* There may be other factors under competitor control, such as athletes getting into the flow before hitting their best results, and taking conservative "can do" jumps before really pushing and taking risks. From the point of view of an RPG game version, I guess that's all hiding in the D20 (although action points, encounter powers etc would also be good models for it).
Tuesday, 2nd October, 2012, 09:59 AM #100
Guide (Lvl 11)