D&D 5E What should the skill list look like?

Chris_Nightwing · Oct 4, 2012

Minigiant said:
Wouldn't that make skills into mini feats? A +1 doesn't affect the roll much. The more important part would be the "take 10" unlock.

I suppose it would, in a strange way. I think that giving a large numerical boost for 'training' in a skill is a poor way to represent the fact that you've been doing something for years. I also don't want particular skills to be deemed essential, so that you can mix basketweaving with perception in the same system. Making the bonus small achieves this, and the ability to take 10 is very useful, but not necessarily amazing on combat skills. I'm not sure if I would make the take 10 like 3E, so only when you're not stressed, or like skill mastery, ie: roll but get no less than 10.

Heck, I remember many people were enamoured with an untrained, apprentice, journeyman, adept, master ranking system (or similar). Each rank could be a +1 to your ability checks for this skill (allowing you to achieve higher DCs) and an increase in the minimum you can roll on the dice (like skill mastery):

Code:

Rank --- Bonus --- Minimum d20 Roll

Untrained        0            1
Apprentice       +1           8
Journeyman       +2          10
Adept            +3          12
Master           +4          14

Minigiant · Oct 4, 2012

Chris_Nightwing said:
I suppose it would, in a strange way. I think that giving a large numerical boost for 'training' in a skill is a poor way to represent the fact that you've been doing something for years. I also don't want particular skills to be deemed essential, so that you can mix basketweaving with perception in the same system. Making the bonus small achieves this, and the ability to take 10 is very useful, but not necessarily amazing on combat skills. I'm not sure if I would make the take 10 like 3E, so only when you're not stressed, or like skill mastery, ie: roll but get no less than 10.

Heck, I remember many people were enamoured with an untrained, apprentice, journeyman, adept, master ranking system (or similar). Each rank could be a +1 to your ability checks for this skill (allowing you to achieve higher DCs) and an increase in the minimum you can roll on the dice (like skill mastery):

Code:

Rank --- Bonus --- Minimum d20 Roll Untrained 0 1 Apprentice +1 8 Journeyman +2 10 Adept +3 12 Master +4 14

Something like that would work. Actually it makes a lot of sense to work this way.

Then a rogue could get Apprentice in his scheme at level 1, Journeyman at another level ( maybe 4th), etc.

Viking Bastard · Oct 4, 2012

I really like this approach. Maybe Rogues can get an extra bonus instead, or learn skills more easily.

Crazy Jerome · Oct 5, 2012

I don't think we'll ever get a truly excellent skill system in D&D. There are too many aspects of the core idea of the game that work against it, the d20 resolution being just the tip of the iceberg.

I would like it if the designer of the skill system, however it goes, is not under the delusion that the DM forcing the skills chosen to matter is anything but a symptom of an attentive DM dealing with a failure in the design.

Jeff Carlsen · Oct 5, 2012

Chris_Nightwing said:
Heck, I remember many people were enamoured with an untrained, apprentice, journeyman, adept, master ranking system (or similar). Each rank could be a +1 to your ability checks for this skill (allowing you to achieve higher DCs) and an increase in the minimum you can roll on the dice (like skill mastery):

Code:

Rank --- Bonus --- Minimum d20 Roll Untrained 0 1 Apprentice +1 8 Journeyman +2 10 Adept +3 12 Master +4 14

I like this for several reasons.

The names give context to the skill level. This is very useful, and critical for creating NPCs on the fly.
The bonuses provide symmetry with those from ability scores. Equal parts nature and nurture.
Skill provides more consistency, as skill in something should.

I would consider a couple of adjustments, though.

First, I would match up the minimum rolls to the DC levels provided by the DM guidelines document. Thus:

Code:

Rank        Bonus   Minimum d20 Roll

Untrained     0      1
Apprentice   +1      7  (Trivial DC)
Journeyman   +2     10  (Easy DC)
Adept        +3     13  (Moderate DC)
Master       +4     16  (Hard DC)

Second, as an option I would add a level called incompetent, that provides a -1. and provides a maximum roll. Perhaps this would be reserved for a Flaws module.

Chris_Nightwing · Oct 5, 2012

Jeff Carlsen said:
First, I would match up the minimum rolls to the DC levels provided by the DM guidelines document.

Second, as an option I would add a level called incompetent, that provides a -1. and provides a maximum roll. Perhaps this would be reserved for a Flaws module.

Bear in mind that if you use a minimum d20 roll, then a skill and ability bonus will still apply, so the 16 will become 20 + ability modifier, which is probably a bit high? I love the idea of an incompetent grade.

I had a further thought that incorporates your DC suggestion and gives the Rogue something more (since I'm giving skill mastery to everyone). Instead of your skill level determining your minimum d20 roll, it could determine the minimum final outcome, so if you roll badly you get enough to satisfy a particular DC, and your ability doesn't matter. The Rogue benefit could be that they get to use the minimum as the dieroll rather than outcome, so they will get the skill bonus and ability modifier on top of that. My only caveat is that it makes them expert, but not exciting in play - so I would give them the option to instead reroll a failed check to reflect the 'expert' and 'trickster' archetypes of Rogue skill monkeys.

Jeff Carlsen · Oct 5, 2012

Chris_Nightwing said:
Bear in mind that if you use a minimum d20 roll, then a skill and ability bonus will still apply, so the 16 will become 20 + ability modifier, which is probably a bit high? I love the idea of an incompetent grade.

I had a further thought that incorporates your DC suggestion and gives the Rogue something more (since I'm giving skill mastery to everyone). Instead of your skill level determining your minimum d20 roll, it could determine the minimum final outcome, so if you roll badly you get enough to satisfy a particular DC, and your ability doesn't matter. The Rogue benefit could be that they get to use the minimum as the dieroll rather than outcome, so they will get the skill bonus and ability modifier on top of that. My only caveat is that it makes them expert, but not exciting in play - so I would give them the option to instead reroll a failed check to reflect the 'expert' and 'trickster' archetypes of Rogue skill monkeys.

Ahh, you're correct. I was thinking about it as minimum result. To get the numbers I wanted using minimum d20 roll, the numbers would have to be 0, 6, 8, 10, and 12.