D&D 5E 5e: the demystification of monsters?

Steely_Dan · Oct 2, 2012

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
1) As in, "it doesn't matter, because my point still stands even with the +2 to attack rolls you were requesting, and therefore you're still wrong.

2) You know what? I'm done.

1) In your opinion, my play-tests' have resulted differently.

2) Good, please, quit while you're behind.
In case it needs to be said, being hostile to other posters is a no-no.

SD, this is the third post in three days that we've had to step in on. Expect a message. ~KM

gweinel · Oct 2, 2012

Jack7 said:
snip

I agree almost to everything you say. I couldn't say better if i wanted to describe how i wanted the monsters to be. I love gritty games (i still use the critical charts from 2nd edition), but the monsters of the playtest didn't evoke the feeling that evoked to you and your gaming group. They didn't scare my players too much in the end. I am not saying that i didn't try to built an atmosphere. They got suprised and terrified when i threw them the ogre at 1st lvl but in the end it was too easy for them. They didn't believe that they could beat an ogre. They find it was too easy kill for their current level. I am speaking ofc for the defeult MM ogre. I think you ll be able to add hit dice to the monsters and maybe classes/specialties/backgrounds in the final product but i am really concerned of the default "flatness" of the monsters.

Blackbrrd · Oct 2, 2012

What I don't get in the discussion above is why you are discussing if a single Ogre is a threat to a complete level 10 party. Or a single level 5 fighter. To me it looks like the ogre can hit, and if lucky hit hard. Probably not going to do too much on his own. Who here thinks the ogre will be used alone?

Against a level 10 party, you will probably see something like 2-3 hill giants and 6-12 ogres. In 5e it looks like the addition of the 6-12 ogres will change the encounter dramatically. In earlier editions (3e, 4e) they would most likely be just cannon fodder unable to hit except on maybe 19 or 20 on a d20, and hittable on a 2 on a d20.

Manbearcat · Oct 2, 2012

Wow. Puzzling.

Hrm. I don't think I have much to add here after the aneurysm I've endured in reading the exchange of the last few pages. Maybe this bit; I believe Mearls has stated that monsters aren't remotely in their final stages so things are still in flux. Further, as always, you can amp up the level/potency/danger of anything you wish to by way of templates, classes, formulaic advancement, etc. Further, hopefully there are stock versions of advanced creatures. If you want deadly/scary ogres/drow/wights at first level, you should be able to pull that off no problem.

Steely_Dan · Oct 2, 2012

Blackbrrd said:
What I don't get in the discussion above is why you are discussing if a single Ogre is a threat to a complete level 10 party. Or a single level 5 fighter. To me it looks like the ogre can hit, and if lucky hit hard. Probably not going to do too much on his own. Who here thinks the ogre will be used alone?

Against a level 10 party, you will probably see something like 2-3 hill giants and 6-12 ogres. In 5e it looks like the addition of the 6-12 ogres will change the encounter dramatically. In earlier editions (3e, 4e) they would most likely be just cannon fodder unable to hit except on maybe 19 or 20 on a d20, and hittable on a 2 on a d20.

Exactly, I was pointing out an Ogre is not be completely useless (can still hit members of the party and do damage without having to roll a 20 or what-have-you) to a 10th level party in 5th Ed, as it is in 3rd and 4th Ed.

Even 10 Orcs vs. your 10th level fighter will be annoying in 5th Ed if they (hopefully) keep with Bounded Accuracy (I know I will).

Jack7 · Oct 2, 2012

I agree almost to everything you say. I couldn't say better if i wanted to describe how i wanted the monsters to be. I love gritty games (i still use the critical charts from 2nd edition), but the monsters of the playtest didn't evoke the feeling that evoked to you and your gaming group. They didn't scare my players too much in the end. I am not saying that i didn't try to built an atmosphere. They got suprised and terrified when i threw them the ogre at 1st lvl but in the end it was too easy for them. They didn't believe that they could beat an ogre. They find it was too easy kill for their current level. I am speaking ofc for the defeult MM ogre. I think you ll be able to add hit dice to the monsters and maybe classes/specialties/backgrounds in the final product but i am really concerned of the default "flatness" of the monsters.

I thnk what you say is fair enough as I haven't playtested the adventure or monsters of the 5E playtest material. I made up my own campaign and monsters. But I used those general design parameters to create my own monsters.

My advice might be to alter the monster (not just the hit dice) and the situation so as to make the ogre more Ogrish.

There's a lot of open room in those monster designs to really open up how they act and behave. Very little is speleld out about the Ogre in the Bestiary. If I were doing the Ogre for my setting I'd make my ogre's strength and senses formidable advantages, not just in combat. But in tracking and in other ways. He's also chaotic evil. Let him berserk on rampages. Run off if injured (like Grendel) or attack with animal like instincts when in an advantage. Let him smell the approach of the party and be ready for them.

There's a lot the designers didn't spell out, meaning a lot you can improvise with. I take the view that if it's not specifically disallowed, it's open to experimentation.

Patryn of Elvenshae · Oct 2, 2012

Blackbrrd said:
What I don't get in the discussion above is why you are discussing if a single Ogre is a threat to a complete level 10 party.

Because [MENTION=6689033]Steely_Dan[/MENTION] said "an ogre ... will still be a threat to a 10th level party," and "Anyway, what I said holds true, a monster with +6 to hit and 2d8 + 4 damage is still a threat to a 10th level character in 5th Ed."

"An ogre" isn't going to be a threat to a 10th-level party, because, as demonstrated, it's not even a threat to a single 5th-level fighter.

Accordingly, while the goal of bounded accuracy is that you can throw a bunch of lower-level foes at your 10th-level party and they'll be a reasonably serious threat, I'm not seeing it with the current (or even 1st-version) playtest ogre.

In 5e it looks like the addition of the 6-12 ogres will change the encounter dramatically. In earlier editions (3e, 4e) they would most likely be just cannon fodder unable to hit except on maybe 19 or 20 on a d20, and hittable on a 2 on a d20.

I'm not sure they aren't going to be cannon fodder in 5E, either. Against a completely mundanely equipped level 5 fighter (who is not even using the best gear available to him), they're only hitting on ... 14, IIRC. Sure, maybe they can mess up the wizard in close combat, but we haven't seen the defensive spell a level 10 Wizard would have (and something like, say, Stoneskin would put a crimp in their damage output).

At 32 hit points, I don't think they'll have a whole lot of staying power at that level, either - a 5th-level fighter is already dishing out [W]+2d8 damage, if he wants to, and a similarly-leveled rogue is sneak attacking for [W]+6d6 on a Sneak attack.

Essentially, I laud the goal of bounded accuracy, but I don't think what we've seen so far establishes that it is in-game and working-as-intended yet.

Minigiant · Oct 2, 2012

Are ogres even supposed to scare a party of 3 or 4?

An ogre is just a stupid 9ft tall humanoid. He doesn't even breathe fire, cast spells, fly, or regenerate limbs.

gweinel · Oct 2, 2012

Jack7 said:
I thnk what you say is fair enough as I haven't playtested the adventure or monsters of the 5E playtest material. I made up my own campaign and monsters. But I used those general design parameters to create my own monsters.

My advice might be to alter the monster (not just the hit dice) and the situation so as to make the ogre more Ogrish.

There's a lot of open room in those monster designs to really open up how they act and behave. Very little is speleld out about the Ogre in the Bestiary. If I were doing the Ogre for my setting I'd make my ogre's strength and senses formidable advantages, not just in combat. But in tracking and in other ways. He's also chaotic evil. Let him berserk on rampages. Run off if injured (like Grendel) or attack with animal like instincts when in an advantage. Let him smell the approach of the party and be ready for them.

There's a lot the designers didn't spell out, meaning a lot you can improvise with. I take the view that if it's not specifically disallowed, it's open to experimentation.

I like your take on ogre. In my own campaigns i love to fiddle with the monsters, to add/make classes, abilities etc.

But since it was our first game with 5e, i wanted to follow exactly the rules since i hadn't any experience with the system. I didn't feel comfortable enough to customize things. The funny thing is that the maths behind the combat was really off so probably it wouldn't be bad idea to make my own monsters...