D&D 5E 5e: the demystification of monsters?

gweinel · Oct 2, 2012

I know that we are still early in the development of the game and probably this issue, will change later.

In the playtest the heroes, from the 1st level are able to face a variety of foes and monsters. They can beat an ogre, drow elves, wights and many more. These monsters are made in porpuse to be beaten from the 1st level.

Don't get me wrong, i like the variety in battles and the pluralism of the enemies, the thing that i don't like is the demystification of many iconic monsters. I remember back in 2e you have to be 6 or 7 lvl to see the face of a dark elf. In 3rd or 4th edition an ogre could swipe a low level party. Only from 4th-5th level could a party beat it. If the players are able to cope from the 1st level with wights and ogres what will face at 10th level?

At 5e, this magical feeling, this terror in the eyes of the players when they hear the name of iconic monster is being lost, at least for me and my gaming group.

Steely_Dan · Oct 2, 2012

On the flip-side an ogre or a gang of drow will still be a threat to a 10th level party.

gweinel · Oct 2, 2012

Steely_Dan said:
On the flip-side an ogre or a gang of drow will still be a threat to a 10th level party.

But how? The players at 10 lvl will have 10 times more hitpoints and way more things to do in a combat. Do we need an army of ogres to satisfy their interest? Will be interesting after 50 sessions to face again that ogre again? What will suprise them? What will terrified them? Avatars and Tarrasques?
Imagine your gaming group at first level just beat a band of goblins. Now after 50 or more sessions put them again a band of goblins. I am sure you ll see no excitement in their eyes. Maybe even think this is a kind of joke.

slobo777 · Oct 2, 2012

Regarding the Ogre, I think it *is* in fact pretty scary to meet at low level.

The maths is out slightly on two things in the current playtest IMO:

1) The ogre hits too infrequently

2) Parry and Protect are a bit too effective

. . . address those a bit (I'd suggest halving damage absorbed by default Parry, and +2 to hit for the Ogre), and the 2d8+4 damage is pretty scary to a first-level character - even Survivor PCs are within a single hit of being taken out.

Minigiant · Oct 2, 2012

In my head movie, a party of 4 1st levels could defeat an ogre, a few drow, or a couple wrights. It would be hard be none of those monsters are more ore less human+ in combat. It's not like you said vampire spawn, stone giants, or young dragons.

In gameplay, it's about right if not slightly too easy. But that is more or less due to action economy.

Neonchameleon · Oct 2, 2012

Steely_Dan said:
On the flip-side an ogre or a gang of drow will still be a threat to a 10th level party.

I'm unconvinced an Ogre will be a threat to a 5th level party let alone a tenth. Hell, I think that a 5th level fighter on his own might be able to tear that ogre apart; the ogre might be powerful, but when you're in plate armour, carry a large shield, and on the rare occasions the ogre hits you lower its damage by 2d8 (and meanwhile you almost always hit) you're going to tear it apart.

MerricB · Oct 2, 2012

gweinel said:
I know that we are still early in the development of the game and probably this issue, will change later.

In the playtest the heroes, from the 1st level are able to face a variety of foes and monsters. They can beat an ogre, drow elves, wights and many more. These monsters are made in porpuse to be beaten from the 1st level.

Don't get me wrong, i like the variety in battles and the pluralism of the enemies, the thing that i don't like is the demystification of many iconic monsters. I remember back in 2e you have to be 6 or 7 lvl to see the face of a dark elf. In 3rd or 4th edition an ogre could swipe a low level party. Only from 4th-5th level could a party beat it. If the players are able to cope from the 1st level with wights and ogres what will face at 10th level?

In AD&D and original D&D, an ogre can easily be taken down by a 1st level party. Likewise, your regular drow is weak and easily slain.

What we've seen over the editions is monsters becoming more and more powerful; it's rather nice to see them return to their original state.

Steely_Dan · Oct 2, 2012

Neonchameleon said:
I'm unconvinced an Ogre will be a threat to a 5th level party let alone a tenth. Hell, I think that a 5th level fighter on his own might be able to tear that ogre apart; the ogre might be powerful, but when you're in plate armour, carry a large shield, and on the rare occasions the ogre hits you lower its damage by 2d8 (and meanwhile you almost always hit) you're going to tear it apart.

We are not talking about a 5th level fighter.

So, back to the ogre, yes, an extra +2 to hit, like in the original playtest packet (another thing it got right), would definitely make it a threat (still pops for good damage, and the armour piercing trait), the highest non-magical AC is 20 (so far that I've seen).

Minigiant · Oct 2, 2012

MerricB said:
In AD&D and original D&D, an ogre can easily be taken down by a 1st level party. Likewise, your regular drow is weak and easily slain.

What we've seen over the editions is monsters becoming more and more powerful; it's rather nice to see them return to their original state.

That's it exactly.
An orge is just a big tall idiotic human in no armor with a club
A drow is a squishy elf with a mess of tricks..
A wight is a skilled undead warrior is an energy drain

The monsters in the bestiary are really basic humaniods with the wight being one of the most weird. But none are tha far from "former town guard", "new warrior priest", "street rat,"and "apprentice wizard". Enough skilled newbies would crush them... as it should.