D&D 4E Healing and combat tension between 4e and Next

ZombieRoboNinja · Oct 5, 2012

FireLance said:
Maybe something like healing word, only instead of extra healing, it allows the target to spend a Hit Dice (and is thus only useful if the target still has Hit Dice remaining)? To avoid it taking up too many slots, maybe the cleric can regain the slot he used to cast it after a short rest?

What an absolutely brilliant concept. I can't believe that nobody has ever thought of anything remotely like it in the entire history of D&D.

Cute, but I think they want to divorce hd from magical healing so that healing counts as the cleric's resource, not the target's resource that the cleric is letting him access in combat. I'm fine with healing as a daily resource - they just need to silo it off from other spells.

Leatherhead · Oct 5, 2012

To be honest, the hp roller coaster got very frustrating, very quickly. Going down into negatives once in a blue moon is tense. Going into negatives multiple times in a battle, and nearly every battle, is just problematic. You can't do anything while knocked out, which just gets aggravating after a few times. And it's not very scary, because you know you get knocked out all the time, so this time won't be that much different than the last umpteen. At that point it's not really swingy, it's just grindy.

ZombieRoboNinja said:
Cute, but I think they want to divorce hd from magical healing so that healing counts as the cleric's resource, not the target's resource that the cleric is letting him access in combat. I'm fine with healing as a daily resource - they just need to silo it off from other spells.

I just think they should drop HD completely and make the default healing into a ritual instead of a spell. It would go a long way to simplify things and unshackle the clerics resources, while allowing cleric-less groups to go about their business with minimal fuss.

Lanefan · Oct 5, 2012

I quite like these - could add a lot to the game as long as they're not an every-combat sort of thing.

That said:

RangerWickett said:
* Crap, we're dying here. But the dragon is down to under 50 hit points. I blow my combat superiority dice on Killing Embrace. The dragon gets a free attack on me, but I simultaneously get to attack, and if I hit, it's a crit that inflicts a horrible wound. ---- He got me in his jaws, but I drove my spear through his eye and pierced his brain. He flails and drops me, and we both fall limply to the ground.

Or

* I'm a necromancer, and my Death Spell does damage based on the number of monsters that have died in this combat. We've killed all the blackguards minions. Now I've just got to get close enough to touch the blackguard's chest, and he'll keel over.

Or

* You may strike me down, but by Pelor I curse you! May the sun's holy light sear your eyes so that you might never see its blessed rays again!

Or

* I'm a fire elementalist. There have to be at least three fires active for me to cast my most powerful spell. So early in the fight I shoot minor spells that create burning barriers or set fire to minions. Then I can finally cast Power Word Incinerate.

Your first one really flies in the face of both 3e and 4e design in that those two editons really don't like things to happen simultaneously; meaning it's not a likely option for 5e. Which is sad, as there's nothing at all wrong with simultaneous actions.

Lanefan

FireLance · Oct 5, 2012

Leatherhead said:
To be honest, the hp roller coaster got very frustrating, very quickly. Going down into negatives once in a blue moon is tense. Going into negatives multiple times in a battle, and nearly every battle, is just problematic. You can't do anything while knocked out, which just gets aggravating after a few times. And it's not very scary, because you know you get knocked out all the time, so this time won't be that much different than the last umpteen. At that point it's not really swingy, it's just grindy.

To be frank, "Going into negatives multiple times in a battle, and nearly every battle" is not something that I aim for when I DM 4e, and if that actually is happening at the table, well, I think the solution is to turn down the level of opposition a notch (which, as has often been repeated, is remarkably easy to do in 4e).

I personally tend to shoot for "around half the PCs end up bloodied" for most regular fights, and "one PC drops to 0 hit points" (only once, though) for the toughest fight in a dungeon or an adventure (or about once per dungeon level/region, for a large dungeon, or per adventure arc, for a long adventure).

Magil · Oct 5, 2012

Leatherhead said:
I just think they should drop HD completely and make the default healing into a ritual instead of a spell. It would go a long way to simplify things and unshackle the clerics resources, while allowing cleric-less groups to go about their business with minimal fuss.

And I don't want this in any shape or form. I like my in-combat healing thank you very much, I want to see the HP numbers go up and down during combat. Mostly because it's not fun for me to see lots of "miss" on both sides of the table. I never really thought the 50-65% hit rate was a very fun part of combat, and IMO even 4E has a bit too much of this at lower levels. In any case, I hope in-combat healing remains viable to some extent. I think it'd be a dealbreaker for me if it went.

Sadras · Oct 5, 2012

What is rather silly is having unconsious characters who are revived by a cure spell to suddenly rush off and attack their opponents like nothing ever happened. Rather when they are healed, let them have a round where they are dazed or stunned (I mean its 6 seconds). When you wake up, are you immediately fit for combat or to charge? Let the healing process convey that delay when a character is brought back from unconsiousness.
I could always make it a house rule, its not a deal breaker

Leatherhead · Oct 5, 2012

Magil said:
And I don't want this in any shape or form. I like my in-combat healing thank you very much, I want to see the HP numbers go up and down during combat. Mostly because it's not fun for me to see lots of "miss" on both sides of the table. I never really thought the 50-65% hit rate was a very fun part of combat, and IMO even 4E has a bit too much of this at lower levels. In any case, I hope in-combat healing remains viable to some extent. I think it'd be a dealbreaker for me if it went.

You really don't need combat healing if you want a near 100% hit rate. Heck, you don't even need to tweak the damage or the HP. "Rocket Tag" is a perfectly viable thing.

However, I must note that ritual healing doesn't entirely preclude combat healing. You could still have things like Second Wind or a Cure Light Wounds spell. It's just that they would be an emergency tool rather than a given thing that is expected to be used all the time.

FireLance said:
I personally tend to shoot for "around half the PCs end up bloodied" for most regular fights, and "one PC drops to 0 hit points" (only once, though) for the toughest fight in a dungeon or an adventure (or about once per dungeon level/region, for a large dungeon, or per adventure arc, for a long adventure).

I don't understand why you would need a significant amount of combat healing to play such a style of game. Making most healing a ritual (with a token spell or or ability for combat) wouldn't really change that style of play much, if any.

FireLance · Oct 5, 2012

Leatherhead said:
I don't understand why you would need a significant amount of combat healing to play such a style of game. Making most healing a ritual (with a token spell or or ability for combat) wouldn't really change that style of play much, if any.

Basically, the healing is supposed to kick in after the PCs get bloodied, but before they drop to 0 hit points, and ideally, should be what prevents them from dropping to 0 hit points.

Tony Vargas · Oct 5, 2012

Clerical healing - and even once it's spread out to other classes, it's still the same phenomenon - is just one of those oddities of D&D that's become enshrined. It is ridiculous to have one character fighting while another stand behind him and heals him. True. But, it's really D&D, and 5e is groping for that 'real D&D feel.'

Mishihari Lord · Oct 5, 2012

RangerWickett said:
... The party is left beaten and bloodied, and feeling like they narrowly pulled out a win. ...

I agree that this makes for a great D&D game. However I've never much cared for the up, down, up, down nature of all versions of D&D I've played (Holmes Basic to 3E). I think there would be more tension and more fun if hp only went down during combat. I'd like to see healing as a more strategic resource, used between encounters.