D&D 4E Healing and combat tension between 4e and Next

Tony Vargas · Oct 8, 2012

UngeheuerLich said:
Do you know how refreshing it was, when my players hacked through 5 orcs in merley seconds? After preparing the surprise attack? That is how i want combat to play out.

And you couldn't do that with minions because...?

GreyICE · Oct 8, 2012

Leatherhead said:
I always thought of healing wands in 3.x as more of a bug than a feature.

Given they worked even back in 3.0, and WotC released 3.5 and didn't change a damn thing, I'd probably say that if they weren't intended, then they certainly weren't discouraged. CLW/LV wands were definitely a big part of 3.X gaming.

UngeheuerLich · Oct 8, 2012

Tony Vargas said:
And you couldn't do that with minions because...?

I could, but using minions in that way seemed wrong to me. Because if you encounter 5 minions, no matter what players do, the win.
If you encounter 5 DnDnext orcs, you could as well be the one who is beeing hacked in a few rounds, if they have the advantage...

Balesir · Oct 8, 2012

UngeheuerLich said:
I could, but using minions in that way seemed wrong to me. Because if you encounter 5 minions, no matter what players do, the win.
If you encounter 5 DnDnext orcs, you could as well be the one who is beeing hacked in a few rounds, if they have the advantage...

In our last run several of the (16th level) characters in the party I DM for took damage from minions - it's quite possible.

DDN goblins and kobolds (at least) will basically go down if you hit them - and that's precisely what minions do. But, if you miss them, they are still there, plugging away - just like those goblins and kobolds.

I do think there's room in 4E for something in the "middle ground" - an "elite minion" where first hit bloodies, second (or crit) kills is one possibility I've been considering using. But the basic idea of saying "if hit points are PC minimum damage or less, call them 1" makes life simpler for me as GM and I'm fully in favour of it.

pemerton · Oct 8, 2012

Balesir said:
[MENTION=6684526]I like the odd "trivial" encounter, but I don't really like them to be random.

<snip>

Render the opposing monsters minions rather than standard monsters, as they are taken completely off-guard.

Both these things fit my style. I don't mind trivial encounters, but don't use them randomly. And I like using "minionisation" as a result of successful skill checks, if that is a good way of throwing the focus of the game away from the combat and onto the skillful stuff (like planning, ambushing etc) that surrounds it.

Neechen said:
Since combats with some creatures don't take too long, a random (or not so random/auxillary) encounter can help further the story and push the PCs along.

If I think that the PCs are lingering somewhere too long, or if I want to subtly suggest that they check out one area or move away from another area, I may have 2 or 3 Orcs, Skeletons, Zombies, etc. shamble down the hall or open up a door ahead of them.

In this sort of situation I will tend to be more overt - for example, just suggesting to the players that they move on or check out something interesting.

RangerWickett said:
I kinda agree, but having played the Blingdenstone adventure, it was kinda fun to randomly stumble upon some enemies and defeat them with 5 or 10 minutes of play, then get back to business. It was a pleasant aesthetic.

Fair enough. Would it be fair to describe it as an "old school" or "classic D&D" aesthetic?

UngeheuerLich said:
I do like quasi random encounters for several reasons.

Two questions: Quasi-random to what degree? And what are the reasons? Do they include the aesthetic that RangerWickett mentions?

UngeheuerLich · Oct 8, 2012

Quasi random: I roll on a premade list and then i decide if an encounter makes sense... I do like the tension that there may happen something during the night... and if you make it random, your players know you don´t punish them for resting when they should not...

Tony Vargas · Oct 8, 2012

UngeheuerLich said:
I could, but using minions in that way seemed wrong to me. Because if you encounter 5 minions, no matter what players do, the win.
If you encounter 5 DnDnext orcs, you could as well be the one who is beeing hacked in a few rounds, if they have the advantage...

So you miss the kind of swinginess that can turn a quick, trivial 'mood stetting' or 'random' encounter into a TPK.

Or by 'hacked' do you just mean take some meaningful damage? Because minions in a favorable situation can put out a fair bit of damage before they pop.

jrowland · Oct 8, 2012

Tony Vargas said:
Because minions in a favorable situation can put out a fair bit of damage before they pop.

Minion archers elevated by terrain (in tree blinds, on a ledge, etc) such that only ranged attacks can reach them and/or multi-rounds of climbing/travelling paired with Soldier (or brutes) types keeping anyone from either ranging the minions or traveling...

ignore the minions and get a steady bleed of HP, focus on the minions, and the brute bashes PCs into oblivion..

My first tpk in 4E was death by minion archers.

Tony Vargas · Oct 8, 2012

jrowland said:
Minion archers elevated by terrain (in tree blinds, on a ledge, etc) such that only ranged attacks can reach them and/or multi-rounds of climbing/travelling paired with Soldier (or brutes) types keeping anyone from either ranging the minions or traveling...

ignore the minions and get a steady bleed of HP, focus on the minions, and the brute bashes PCs into oblivion..

My first tpk in 4E was death by minion archers.

Or minion skirmishers or lurkers with situational damage bonuses. Or exploding minions - I managed a TPK in the first Lair Assault using those exploding cultists... ;>

UngeheuerLich · Oct 8, 2012

Tony Vargas said:
So you miss the kind of swinginess that can turn a quick, trivial 'mood stetting' or 'random' encounter into a TPK.

Or by 'hacked' do you just mean take some meaningful damage? Because minions in a favorable situation can put out a fair bit of damage before they pop.

No, i do like a TPK in situations where players do stupid things... prevents them from having wrong assumptions how the game works...