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Tuesday, 9th October, 2012, 10:40 PM #71
Magsman (Lvl 14)
To me, healing surges are better because the capacity to heal is where it fits best - with the "patient" being healed - and the "healer" is just a catalyst for the process. The resource management is still there, but now it scales to the number of characters in the party and is a game everyone gets to play. The healer still gets to be a helpful catalyst to speed when the resource can be spent - and maybe even has some "bonus" resource to add into the pot for any "patient" of their choice - but doesn't have to be the sole source of fast recovery for however many there are in the team.
Whether the healing can be done in combat is a taste thing. I think it adds an extra dimension to the tactical game, but to those who either want a simpler tactical game, or who just don't want a tactical game at all, I can see that it's not helpful. An area for "modularity" to apply, maybe.Balesir
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Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 05:34 AM #72
Magsman (Lvl 14)
Well, unless some of the characters re-charge super-powerful abilities every day, and are only remotely balanced when forced into 4-5 encounter days.There is nothing - repeat, nothing - wrong with a party taking several days or even a few weeks (or even a few months if there's lots of travel involved) in game time to get through an adventure; most of which time is spent resting.
The upshot of that is that class balance and resource management need to be robust and flexible enough to allow the DM to vary pacing to fit his campaign. A 'dial' that adjusted not just healing, but all resource-recovery would be a good part of that.
That is a lot of what broke the 3e Cleric. It was designed with the idea that it would use a lot of it's spells to heal, restore, and/or buff it's party, particularly those benighted non-casters. Instead, parties stocked up on WoCLWs, Clerics rarely healed in-combat (never out of combat), and buffed themselves into CoDzillas. Being able to swap out resources meant to aid the party, to gain resources for self-glorification was the core problem.Or, as an alternative, there's also nothing wrong with having the healers use their spells to - horrors! - heal rather than to do other things (I think this is a lot of what broke the Cleric in 3e - they didn't need to save their spells for healing so instead could become buff machines).
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 10:05 PM #73
Magsman (Lvl 14)
I don't believe the OP's description of a long, drawn out battle against a significant opponent should be ignored, but I don't believe it requires extensive, short-gain healing options either. High level casters have powers, both weak and powerful in the vancian system. Powerful wizards can cast their most powerful spell that they've been saving all day. Clerics can use all kinds of enhancements, aids, and heals to benefit their allies. Regardless, a high level party could pull off what was described.
What isn't needed is a baked in combat length or multiple heals. That simply makes one's decisions in combat more scripted and contrived than leaving combat space as wide open as possible. Sometimes combats run long. Sometimes its because dice are rolling poorly, sometimes its because the players went in with a number of misconceptions about their foe. There are plenty of reasons.
Low level play historically has fewer options, but players can always, at any level, choose to get creative. Their opponents don't. They fight based upon a number of factors predetermined by the game system, but ultimately they aren't as capable of being newly creative as the players. That's simply the nature of the game.
Setting up the possibility of a long, tough battle that ends in the PCs is something I agree with. But I would only want it if the possibilities existed as well for short, easy battles and long, tough ones the PCs ultimately ran from, were captured, or were even possibly killed during.
Playing a game is a study. Storytelling is personal composition.
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 11:42 PM #74
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
Narratively, of course you want the game to let short easy battles and short hard battles and short impossible battles and long impossible battles exist.
All I want is for long hard battles to exist. Because in 3.5, they often didn't. Initiative. I cast hold person. I coup de grace the adventure's final boss. (Or dominate monster. I coup de grace the main boss of the campaign.) Kind of underwhelming.
Thursday, 11th October, 2012, 02:43 AM #75
Gallant (Lvl 3)
snippage of stuff I totally agree with
Thursday, 11th October, 2012, 03:38 AM #76
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
The DM sat quietly for a second and the said "We'll... it's a cow.". And then with a befuddled "moo?" it plummeted to the earth and went splat.
Thursday, 11th October, 2012, 04:38 AM #77
Gallant (Lvl 3)
Much like Hold Person (or Disintegrate in 1/2/3E), Polymorph Other/Baleful Polymorph has likewise led to some anticlimactic (yet quite amusing moments) at several points in my career as DM....many a villain, both monstrous or human(oid) has ended their career as a hamster/rabbit/mouse being gang-stomped by a party of vengeful adventurers.
P.S. And to reiterate my previous sentiment, that's okay! That's what some of the fun of D&D is for me. My villainous plans and occasionally the player's heroic plans go spectacularly awry from time to time and I wouldn't have it any other way. Hey, they roll ones on saves too!
Last edited by 13garth13; Thursday, 11th October, 2012 at 04:41 AM. Reason: grammar
Thursday, 11th October, 2012, 07:59 AM #78
The Great Druid (Lvl 17)
Some adventures, but not all. Each adventure really should have its own pacing - sometimes the party might think they're on a clock when they're actually not; other times they might not know of a deadline until it's too late; another adventure might have a well-known and hard deadline, while a fourth doesn't have any time limit at all.
* - note this still doesn't completely work in a 4e-style situation where resources (other than dailies) are not really diminished that much as you go along - you've always got your at-wills, you've got your encounter powers to pull out once per fight no matter how many fights you get into, and so on.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *DM: Telenet 1984-1994, Riveria 1995-2007, Decast 2008 -->* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Thursday, 11th October, 2012, 09:24 AM #79
Magsman (Lvl 14)
The point isn't really the "in combat healing" - it's not any one, specific thing. It's making sure that there are plenty of knots and gnarls to work with (and work around) as the play progresses. In other words, when I "get creative", I want to build something from what is already there, not invent whatever I want without any sort of constraint. The second form of play isn't wrong - it's just not what I find fulfilling.
Last edited by Balesir; Thursday, 11th October, 2012 at 09:26 AM. Reason: The usual (typo).
Thursday, 11th October, 2012, 05:34 PM #80
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
In the 3 editions of D&D I played before 4e, the players always managed to pull themselves out of the brink. 4e might force it with design, but it certainly is not unique to 4e.
I am looking forward to the quick dramatic combats in previous editions, rather than the long drawn out grinds that take an hour or more to run.
If they want to make long drawn out combats a module it is all good,
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