Fudging is not your friend

delericho · Oct 5, 2012

These days, I make all of my dice rolls out in the open, where any player who cares to can take a look. (That said, I keep the stats and associated modifiers hidden, so all they know is that I'm not fudging the rolls.)

I've had a couple of discussions on this with another GM in our group, who maintains that this is a mistake - that the game would flow better if I were to at least give myself the option of fudging rolls (in either direction).

Here's a truth: My players have fun. Loads of fun. I believe that vindicates my choice.

Here's another truth: His players have fun. Loads of fun. I believe that also vindicates his choice.

My choice not to fudge rolls did have one massive effect on the game this week - one of the characters took a hit for 29 damage. On checking the sheet, the player then realised that his character had been killed outright, reduced from 18 hit points to -11 (3.5e, so dead). At which point I was sorely tempted to rule that the character was instead reduced to -8 hit points or so, but I really felt I couldn't due to the rolls being in the open, the results all being declared, and everything being clear.

It was a somewhat painful moment, and it definitely dominated the game session, but I'm convinced in was the right decision to let the dice lie where they fell. (Not least because had the character dropped to -8, it's likely the other PCs would have tried to help her. But none of them had enough hit points to be confident that they wouldn't be slain outright by one more hit. It's entirely possible that fudging to keep that one PC alive might have resulted in a TPK.)

S'mon · Oct 5, 2012

delericho said:
It was a somewhat painful moment, and it definitely dominated the game session, but I'm convinced in was the right decision to let the dice lie where they fell. (Not least because had the character dropped to -8, it's likely the other PCs would have tried to help her. But none of them had enough hit points to be confident that they wouldn't be slain outright by one more hit. It's entirely possible that fudging to keep that one PC alive might have resulted in a TPK.)

Yeah - once you start down the dark path (of fudging), forever it shall dominate your destiny!

Personally I'm increasingly preferring to have target DCs, enemy defenses, enemy attack bonuses etc public knowledge, as recommended by Sly Flourish. The more mechanics is open to the players the better, IME. If they know what the target number is pre-roll then they can make an informed decision whether to take the shot. If they know the enemy attack bonus etc then they are better able to make an informed decision whether to fight or flee, which reduces the chances of a TPK without need for fudging. I don't tend to say how many hp the monsters have left, but 4e's bloodied condition already makes it fairly clear.

delericho · Oct 5, 2012

S'mon said:
Personally I'm increasingly preferring to have target DCs, enemy defenses, enemy attack bonuses etc public knowledge, as recommended by Sly Flourish. The more mechanics is open to the players the better, IME. If they know what the target number is pre-roll then they can make an informed decision whether to take the shot.

The only major problem with that is that giving them that information is likely to see them making character decisions based on meta-game knowledge - if they know the enemy has a much higher Fort defence than Will, they're almost certainly going to start targetting the Will defence exclusively, where their characters likely shouldn't have that information (or, at the least, should be required to figure it out).

One of the things that yet another of the DMs in my group did was to keep the defences hidden until just after the first time they were targetted, after which he revealed them. That way, the PCs might waste one attack on a deceptively high defence, but wouldn't waste loads of them, one after another.

That struck me as being a nice compromise.

Crothian · Oct 5, 2012

I wear the dice, the dice to not wear me.

Enkhidu · Oct 5, 2012

delericho said:
...One of the things that yet another of the DMs in my group did was to keep the defences hidden until just after the first time they were targetted, after which he revealed them. That way, the PCs might waste one attack on a deceptively high defence, but wouldn't waste loads of them, one after another.

That struck me as being a nice compromise.

This is what I do - announce the magic number after it's targeted the first time. I find it works rather well.

rogueattorney · Oct 5, 2012

I roll dice in the open in most situations. I like the trust it creates at the table. I like the players to know I'm not giving them (or the npcs) a safety net. I think a lot more interesting play comes of it. More parleying and negotiations.

I don't even use a DM screen. I don't like having the separation between player and DM.

I like not knowing what is going to happen. I like being surprised by the dice and "rolling with it."

Last session, I had a npc that I had some vague future plans for. He died an ignominious death. (Actually, two. His original death at the hands of ghouls, and then his short life as a ghoul was ended by the pcs about a week later.) Meanwhile, a local militiaman I pulled out of my nether regions in the middle of play became a folk hero after landing the killing blow on a pesky giant beetle. That's just the way the dice bounce sometimes, and I find it far more interesting that way.

Li Shenron · Oct 5, 2012

delericho said:
These days, I make all of my dice rolls out in the open, where any player who cares to can take a look. (That said, I keep the stats and associated modifiers hidden, so all they know is that I'm not fudging the rolls.

Uhm... does this really help? I mean, of course it helps at least generally because if they see a clearly high roll or a clearly low roll then the result kind of matches the expectations from the numbers on the dice. Furthermore, for effects e.g. damage, the result actually IS the numbers on the dice.

But I would expect at least some negative side effects to rolling everything openly when it comes to success/failure rolls, e.g. attack rolls and saving throws.

One side effect is that some players will get distracted by the possibility of figuring out the modifier. E.g. you roll a 15 and declare a hit, then roll a 14 and declare a miss, hence the modifier can be easily figured out. I strongly believe that this information is almost always useless to the players, but the problem lies in the fact that the possibility of knowing it causes a distraction. If they don't see the number, all that matters is the result: does it hit or not? So they're not going to waste their thinking on figuring out the modifiers.

Another complication is that the game is full of temporary bonuses, from spells and either abilities. If you roll 15 twice, but the first is a hit and the second is a miss or viceversa (because of some effect that was temporary) it may raise suspicions from some player. This could be a good thing if there really was a temporary effect and the player uses this information for some tactical choice with an in-game explanation: perhaps her wizard PC had a hunch that the enemy turned on some magic item and now she tries to launch a Dispel Magic. But if there wasn't a temporary effect and the DM just made an honest mistake, some players may get upset. You can say that in this case rolling hidden helps making occasional mistakes part of the random process by hiding them.

Alaxk Knight of Galt · Oct 5, 2012

I've got two thoughts on this

1. Failure can be as interesting as success (if not more so).
2. Why roll the dice if you already know what outcome you want.

Desdichado · Oct 5, 2012

There's fudging and then there's fudging. Completely ignoring the dice is one thing. Being completely a slave to them is another.

Unless you're a lot more gamist in your approach to the experience than I am, fudging absolutely is your friend. But you can't do it willy-nilly and expect it to work well. In fact, my players never know (until sometimes after the fact) if I've fudged something or not.

Then again, what exactly is fudging? If I'm literally making up stats for my opponents on the fly, then either you can say that the entire experience is fudged, or you can say that that's not what is meant by fudging at all.

Nytmare · Oct 5, 2012

I probably fudge, my players wouldn't be able to tell you one way or the other. My table setup doesn't provide me with an open space to easily make rolls out in the open, so they (in general) take place either on my laptop, or back behind my screen. I have been known to occasionally make a particularly climactic roll out on the table, but that's a rare occurrence.

Other places where fudging is acceptable and not met with derision: books, plays, movies, and magic shows.