Fudging is not your friend

billd91 · Oct 6, 2012

Alaxk Knight of Galt said:
The Rogue in the example above took a chance at tumbling by a skeleton triceratops while at low HP.

No again. The rogue was at full hit points... Until gored, that is. Fortunately, the witch had a command undead scroll, otherwise they would have been in trouble.

Nytmare · Oct 6, 2012

S'mon said:
Indeed I find it leads to a game I don't enjoy at all, unless the game is explicitly designed around that - Feng Shui maybe, but not Gamist games like D&D that involve players overcoming an actual challenge.

What is your take on something like a death flag thrown into a game of D&D?

For those not familiar with it, a death flag is an E6 (I think?) concept where a character can not die unless the player decides that it's an appropriate point and time in the story.

Basically you announce that you're raising your flag, and exchange encounter(ish) long mortality for an appropriate bonus of some kind.

Evenglare · Oct 6, 2012

I don't fudge, and I wouldn't like it if someone fudged for me. What's the point of adventuring if you can't die? That sounds awful. It's not like this isn't a game and you can't just roll up another character. Sure, people get attached to their characters but the attachment should be meaningful, if someone keeps fudging for you to stay alive it seems pointless. If they can't die from an easy encounter then forgo the encounter. At the very least never award XP for that kind of nonsense.

Elf Witch · Oct 6, 2012

I fudge when I think it is needed to keep the game fun.

For example I had a player lose his character to permanent death and in the very next session I rolled a crit that would have killed this one to. I could see by the look on his face that he was not having fun at that point.

The party had not done anything stupid they were just having bad luck on the dice and mine we on fire. So instead of killing him outright I fudged and dropped him to -9 making him use a precious action point to stabilize.

I know I did the right thing because the player said to me after the game that he didn't know if I had fudged but if I had thank you.

I don't think there is any right way to play each group needs to find what works for them.

S'mon · Oct 6, 2012

Nytmare said:
What is your take on something like a death flag thrown into a game of D&D?

For those not familiar with it, a death flag is an E6 (I think?) concept where a character can not die unless the player decides that it's an appropriate point and time in the story.

Basically you announce that you're raising your flag, and exchange encounter(ish) long mortality for an appropriate bonus of some kind.

As a general rule I wouldn't like it, it would go against the Gamist/Simulationist approach to D&D I prefer. Although maybe if pemerton was GMing his Nar-drifted 4e I could enjoy it.

But generally speaking, I think D&D has lots of bells and whistles that only make sense in a Gamist, challenge-the-players sort of game, and for me it's a poor fit for Dramatist/story-creation based play.

Crothian · Oct 6, 2012

Evenglare said:
I don't fudge, and I wouldn't like it if someone fudged for me. What's the point of adventuring if you can't die?

Do people just use fudging to avoid PC death? That would seem like a very limited use of the tool. I use fudging to make encounters tougher. Or against an NPC to put them in peril. I don't use it to save PC, we have action points that allow the PCS to do that.

Desdichado · Oct 6, 2012

S'mon said:
Well, no. I don't not-fudge for reasons of moral purity. The disbenefit of the suboptimal result in the moment is trivial compared to the long term benefits of not-fudging, IMO. Trying to always have the best possible outcome Right NOW does NOT lead to the best possible outcome over time, whatever certain games designers claim.

I don't know what any game designers claim, but that's absolutely what I claim. But I am no game designer!

Indeed I find it leads to a game I don't enjoy at all, unless the game is explicitly designed around that - Feng Shui maybe, but not Gamist games like D&D that involve players overcoming an actual challenge.

D&D is only a gamist game if you play it that way. That's not a property of the game itself.

Needless to say, I do not. You probably do. Hence we approach the notion of fudging quite differently.

the Jester · Oct 6, 2012

Nytmare said:
What is your take on something like a death flag thrown into a game of D&D?

For those not familiar with it, a death flag is an E6 (I think?) concept where a character can not die unless the player decides that it's an appropriate point and time in the story.

Just for the record, the 'death flag' concept is not from E6 but rather from... can't remember who. But I've read about it on ENWorld, so it's one of our posters!

Nytmare · Oct 6, 2012

the Jester said:
Just for the record, the 'death flag' concept is not from E6 but rather from... can't remember who.

E6 was the first place I saw it. It just always felt to me like it had been inherited from some pre-existing system.

billd91 · Oct 7, 2012

Crothian said:
Do people just use fudging to avoid PC death? That would seem like a very limited use of the tool. I use fudging to make encounters tougher. Or against an NPC to put them in peril. I don't use it to save PC, we have action points that allow the PCS to do that.

No, I use it more to reward good planning. For example, the PC witch wanted to scry on a particular NPC she didn't know directly and failed as a result. So she sent someone to obtain a personal item, which he did. That's a good plan and I was set to fudge her target's save vs the scry if he successfully saved. Turns out I didn't even need to do so, but I would have, absolutely without shame.