Fudging is not your friend

No again. The rogue was at full hit points... Until gored, that is. Fortunately, the witch had a command undead scroll, otherwise they would have been in trouble.

Sorry, was attempting to respond to the hypothetical that Nytmare raised (the rogue, after the crit but before damage announces that he's at low health). After rereading what I wrote, I can see that it wasn't clear enough :D

I still say let the dice fall as they may, but that's just me. I'm happy gaming with GMs of both styles and both have their merits.
 
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E6 was the first place I saw it. It just always felt to me like it had been inherited from some pre-existing system.
It's not in the E6 document at all. It may be there in the thread somewhere, but it's not part of the E6 system that I recall... unless I simply ignored it because I wasn't interested in it. But I don't think so. Maybe it's in that other system; the dramatic roleplaying stuff, or whatever? For whatever reason it's posted with E6, but it's a completely separate document.
 

FireLance

Legend
I like randomness, but I don't like swinginess.

According to my own idiosyncratic definitions, randomness is when you get an outcome you don't expect, while swinginess is when you get an outcome you don't want.

You don't need to fudge randomness. However, one may be tempted to fudge swinginess.

So, if you don't want to fudge and want to encounter situations where you are tempted to fudge as infrequently as possible, one thing that can be done is to use a system that delivers the desired level of randomness, while keeping the swinginess to a minimum.

My system of choice does exactly that, which is why I suppose it is my system of choice.
 

Celebrim

Legend
The basic problem with fudging is that if you use it for less than saving a PC or preserving the continuity of the story, then you are trading the integrity of your game for something of little worth. But if you do use it to save a PC, then you find that you've diminished the PC and the story anyway. Maybe you'll prevent a complete collapse and maybe that will be worth it, but fudging is a lot like spending your principle. Eventually you'll spend enough of your principle that you game won't be generating enough interest.

And to use it successfully for any other reason than the immediate emergency need, requires prophetic powers on your part. If you fudge to save an NPC from immediate ignominious death, then you are gambling that the PC's luck won't turn for the worse and that you'll then need to fudge again to avoid the risk of a PC death. Or if you fudge because the NPC is too hard, then you are gambling that the NPC's luck won't turn for the worse and then you'll have to fudge to prevent the villain from seeming a pushover.

The truth is, you can't really know what is going to happen in the future. You can't know how things would have played out had you played it straight. So there is no way of knowing whether the game would have been better for it. You may fudge to save a PC, but the PC the player would have created had you not done so might have been that player's all-time favorite PC that added more to your game than the vanilla PC that died would have. You don't have omniscence, so you can't really know that you are selecting the 'best possible outcome'. It's quite possible and indeed almost certain, that the 'best possible outcome' is something you never even imagined.

However, what you can say for certain is that if you are fudging to select 'the best possible outcome', your players have lost the ability to choose for themselves and your games integrity is being lost and the players ability to trust you to be fair and impartial is being cast into doubt. The reward of defeating a villain is much less if the player's suspect or know that it was basically foreordained. The reward for solving a puzzle is much less, if the player's know that you are going to give them the answer anyway. The reward for sound tactics and making good choices is less, if the player's know that they would have reached basically the same point without sound judgment. In short, if you reveal that you are fudging, then you disappoint the players and cheat them of thier sense of accomplishment. But if you don't reveal that you are fudging, then your game is based on decieving the players, and if your players are even clever at all then chances are they are going to pick up on it and lose trust in the game. And either way, you are displaying very little faith in your players or in your game.

If your players are really green or tactically unskilled, the best sort of fudging is simply setting for them less difficult challenges than you might have were they green. Give them more resources to work with, and have NPC foes who are somewhat less clever or less brave than you could make them. Play to the player's strengths as they reveal them. Rather than pick your outcomes, help the players grow into the sort of devious players where you have to work hard to give them any real challenge. The greatest sacrifice of fudging is the loss of maturity or skill in the players that comes with it.

There are a few limited occassions where I think that the DM is right to pull from his array of tools the awesome hammer that is his right to break the rules, but that is a tool that has to be used with the greatest care. The chief reason to use it is when you've just outright made a mistake and you have to repair it and nothing else will do. In such cases, its best to be up front with the PC's and say, "I goofed. I forgot to tell you something very critical 2 scenes ago. I'm about to use one of my powers, and if I notice the convient device I beg your pardon for how lame this is going to be but I need to get the game back on track." One of the advantages of that is that it encourages you to be embarassed by fudging rather than to think yourself clever for doing so, when in fact what you are guilty of is thinking a hammer is the solution to every problem.
 
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Ah, that's what I rather cryptically called the other file, the "dramatic roleplaying stuff" because I couldn't remember the title. :)

I wondered if that wasn't the case. That does seem to be a completely separate file, and I'm not sure why it's included alongside the E6 document, since they're not related to each other other than that the same author created both of them, though. I play E6 without any reference to it, although I use the entirety of the actual E6 pdf.
 

herrozerro

First Post
It's not in the E6 document at all. It may be there in the thread somewhere, but it's not part of the E6 system that I recall... unless I simply ignored it because I wasn't interested in it. But I don't think so. Maybe it's in that other system; the dramatic roleplaying stuff, or whatever? For whatever reason it's posted with E6, but it's a completely separate document.

google-fu to the rescue!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/tabletop-gaming/245022-need-some-ideas-dealing-death.html#post4549178
 

Elf Witch

First Post
The basic problem with fudging is that if you use it for less than saving a PC or preserving the continuity of the story, then you are trading the integrity of your game for something of little worth. But if you do use it to save a PC, then you find that you've diminished the PC and the story anyway. Maybe you'll prevent a complete collapse and maybe that will be worth it, but fudging is a lot like spending your principle. Eventually you'll spend enough of your principle that you game won't be generating enough interest.

And to use it successfully for any other reason than the immediate emergency need, requires prophetic powers on your part. If you fudge to save an NPC from immediate ignominious death, then you are gambling that the PC's luck won't turn for the worse and that you'll then need to fudge again to avoid the risk of a PC death. Or if you fudge because the NPC is too hard, then you are gambling that the NPC's luck won't turn for the worse and then you'll have to fudge to prevent the villain from seeming a pushover.

The truth is, you can't really know what is going to happen in the future. You can't know how things would have played out had you played it straight. So there is no way of knowing whether the game would have been better for it. You may fudge to save a PC, but the PC the player would have created had you not done so might have been that player's all-time favorite PC that added more to your game than the vanilla PC that died would have. You don't have omniscence, so you can't really know that you are selecting the 'best possible outcome'. It's quite possible and indeed almost certain, that the 'best possible outcome' is something you never even imagined.

However, what you can say for certain is that if you are fudging to select 'the best possible outcome', your players have lost the ability to choose for themselves and your games integrity is being lost and the players ability to trust you to be fair and impartial is being cast into doubt. The reward of defeating a villain is much less if the player's suspect or know that it was basically foreordained. The reward for solving a puzzle is much less, if the player's know that you are going to give them the answer anyway. The reward for sound tactics and making good choices is less, if the player's know that they would have reached basically the same point without sound judgment. In short, if you reveal that you are fudging, then you disappoint the players and cheat them of thier sense of accomplishment. But if you don't reveal that you are fudging, then your game is based on decieving the players, and if your players are even clever at all then chances are they are going to pick up on it and lose trust in the game. And either way, you are displaying very little faith in your players or in your game.

If your players are really green or tactically unskilled, the best sort of fudging is simply setting for them less difficult challenges than you might have were they green. Give them more resources to work with, and have NPC foes who are somewhat less clever or less brave than you could make them. Play to the player's strengths as they reveal them. Rather than pick your outcomes, help the players grow into the sort of devious players where you have to work hard to give them any real challenge. The greatest sacrifice of fudging is the loss of maturity or skill in the players that comes with it.

There are a few limited occassions where I think that the DM is right to pull from his array of tools the awesome hammer that is his right to break the rules, but that is a tool that has to be used with the greatest care. The chief reason to use it is when you've just outright made a mistake and you have to repair it and nothing else will do. In such cases, its best to be up front with the PC's and say, "I goofed. I forgot to tell you something very critical 2 scenes ago. I'm about to use one of my powers, and if I notice the convient device I beg your pardon for how lame this is going to be but I need to get the game back on track." One of the advantages of that is that it encourages you to be embarassed by fudging rather than to think yourself clever for doing so, when in fact what you are guilty of is thinking a hammer is the solution to every problem.


There is no way of knowing ahead of time the outcome of anything you do as a DM. One can play the game of saying my not fudging to save the PC you have slowly killed the enjoyment of the campaign for that player.

I am not advocating using fudging all the time but it does have its uses and I have found that it adds to the play experience.

As a DM I don't want to limit myself by saying no I will never do that. As a player I don't want to limit the DM from doing what he thinks will enhance the play experience.

There are all kinds of fudging. I don't think I would fudge to save an evil bad guy just because the players did something I didn't expect. Though I have been known to add hit points or subtract them on the fly to make the battle more cinematic.

I also get to know my players and I don't pass judgement on their playstyle. I have had players who don't care if their PC dies and players who get very attached and to them losing a PC especially if they can't come back takes some of the fun out of the game.

I have things in my game that can help prevent death but I have and will fudge to save a PC if I think that it will make the game more fun for that player. And if I have a player who says please don't fudge let me die then I will honor that player as well by not fudging to save his PC.

To me it comes down to having fun and not everyone has fun the same way and while I respect that other DM and groups may enjoy let he dice fall as they may not all groups are like this mine for the most part is not.

There is no right or wrong way to play and as DMs we need to find what works for our group.
 


JustinAlexander

First Post
Most people who talk about fudging being a good idea talk about using fudging to "increase the fun".

But I've discovered that fudging usually does the exact opposite of that: It removes the memorable and unique experiences and replaces them with whatever prepackaged experience the GM was planning.

A key example is In the Depths of Khunbaral. If I was the type of GM who fudged outcomes, I'd probably think something like, "Oh no! They've just killed the BBEG in a single action! That's no fun at all! I'll just fudge this by claiming he had fortification armor."

But if I had done that, I would have eradicated one of the most memorable moments I've experienced in 20 years of gaming.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the screen, I can frequently tell when the GM is fudging. It rarely seems to have a positive impact on the game: It lowers the stakes, trivializes my involvement, and generally deflates the table.

Ultimately, I've come to the conclusion that fudging is a deeply flawed technique that's used to paper over the failures of weak GMs. (Or, in many cases, reinforce their failures. For example, when fudging is used to keep a railroad on track.)
 

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