D&D 5E When to run from a 5e lich

Olgar Shiverstone · Oct 5, 2012

GMforPowergamers said:
I want my all but a god of war.

Sexy, shoeless gods of war?

Stormonu · Oct 6, 2012

I want my liches to be at LEAST the equivalent of 12th level of experience - they should be Name Level plus wizards at the least.

That said, I'd like to see a party of 7th level characters be able to take on a minor lich and win - by the skin of their teeth and about half the party dead.

S'mon · Oct 6, 2012

Warbringer said:
My early experience (1e) was about 15 th ... In recent editions this feels more like 11 th....

My experience was the opposite - in 1e ca 10th level PCs could take on an M-U 18 Lich, but in 3e you had to be within a few levels, due to spellcaster dominance. I've hardly ever used high level NPC casters in 3e for this reason, they have too many obvious I Win buttons.

BriarMonkey · Oct 8, 2012

S'mon said:
My experience was the opposite - in 1e ca 10th level PCs could take on an M-U 18 Lich, but in 3e you had to be within a few levels, due to spellcaster dominance. I've hardly ever used high level NPC casters in 3e for this reason, they have too many obvious I Win buttons.

And therein lies some of the issues with determining relative power levels within any single game - as played vice as the numbers dictate in the book.

I say that because in my own games in the way back (1E), if you encountered a Lich, you ran. That is unless you were at the same, or higher level. There were too many spells that were save-or-die to be able to take the chance. Conversely, in 3E, a Lich was more of an obstacle than a threat of the same magnatude as before. Sure, some of the same spells were in play, but for whatever reason, it played that the PCs had more options and resources for overcoming the Lich than before. <shrug>

Regardless, each GM does things a little different and with that in mind, any monster mechanics that they come up with need to be flexible and allow each GM the ability to scale as they need. (Hence my prior comment on scaling templates.)

S'mon · Oct 8, 2012

BriarMonkey said:
I say that because in my own games in the way back (1E), if you encountered a Lich, you ran. That is unless you were at the same, or higher level. There were too many spells that were save-or-die to be able to take the chance.

IME Save or Die at 11th level meant "Die on a 1" - which a 1st level Cleric could do to you via Command, anyway! :lol:

jrowland · Oct 16, 2012

If you "encounter" a lich...Run. ALWAYS run. When should you go to a lich to encounter it? When you know as much about it as you can, and are confident you are higher level than it.

I shall summon one now with my Thread Resurrection Spell:

The Ancient Dead

n00bdragon · Oct 16, 2012

The problem with liches is a problem with spellcasters in general (the notable exception being within the Edition Which Shall Not Be Named). The power level of a caster ranges from "somewhat above average but not really broken" to "unfair on narrative warping levels" depending on how intelligently the person piloting the caster plays them.

A caster who makes potent use of save-less spells that utterly invalidate certain types of characters will pose a threat to parties multiple times its own level without any extra assistance and without even being undead. A caster who simply spams save or suck with a high enough DC and the sense enough to shoot at saves his targets are unlikely to make can threaten an entire party of his own level or a little higher depending on his initiative. A caster who just shoots fireball is barely a match for a single character of the same level.

Obviously these definitions of "a party" assume the typical Fighter and Thief plus healbutt cleric and the clown in the pointy hat who thinks Scorching Ray is broken. A proper party of four or five smart casters against one smart caster... well whoever wins initiative wins the fight so I hand it to the party since they get four/five d20 rolls to the lich's one.

timASW · Oct 21, 2012

Since an 18th level Lich was specified in the OP I would say theres 2 answers.

1. I ran into a lich in the middle of the woods and neither side is prepared (anti-climactic yes, but just for the sake of argument) Well then I would say a 10th or 11th level is a good time to fight him and less then that should run.

2. On the other hand Lets go plunder this liches highly defended lair and send his bony butt to hell where he belongs. That because of the nature of the lich being able to make the most use of his abilities and defenses is more of a 15th level adventure for a party.

GreyICE · Oct 22, 2012

timASW said:
Since an 18th level Lich was specified in the OP I would say theres 2 answers.

1. I ran into a lich in the middle of the woods and neither side is prepared (anti-climactic yes, but just for the sake of argument) Well then I would say a 10th or 11th level is a good time to fight him and less then that should run.

2. On the other hand Lets go plunder this liches highly defended lair and send his bony butt to hell where he belongs. That because of the nature of the lich being able to make the most use of his abilities and defenses is more of a 15th level adventure for a party.

I'd honestly prefer it if the 18th level lich with his defenses in place and everything ready is a very tough challenge for an 18th level party.

To me that's what 18th level should mean - things of this level are meant for parties of this level.

Maybe a 15th level group of powergamers could take on the 18th level lich in his own lair successfully.

Lichs should never be wandering around in a forest randomly, that's NOT a result your random monster chart should have.

Plane Sailing · Oct 23, 2012

Personally I prefer liches to start becoming available at around 12th level - because they have that unique ability to 'grow as foes' with the party (as long as the phylactery is suitably well hidden - easy at those lower levels).

Then parties can fight the same foe numerous times, he and they getting used to each others foibles and preferences along the way.

I'm curious as to whether there is a reason you picked 18th level wizard lich? It is a particularly difficult point as he has at least a couple of very powerful 9th level spells to hand. Most of the time I'd want a party to be about 16th level to face something like that.

Cheers