DM Advice on dealing with PCs buying/selling magic items

kengar · Dec 9, 2002

the Jester said:
Well, first off, how do they know what their magic items do? Are they casting analyze dweomer all the time? Cuz identify only tells you the least powerful property or spell involved in making the item. The group may well get far less than an item's worth if they're basing their sale price off identify spells.

That's a good point. But in this one case the only item that wasn't just a normal +__ type of item was a +2 Holy weapon. Though you're right that I did mess up telling them that part when they cast Identify.

Secondly, they have to find buyers for the stuff they want to sell and sellers for the stuff they want to buy. They'll prolly get about half the market price for the stuff they sell; and they may need to pay more than market price for stuff they have to buy (either because the owner's reluctant to sell it or they're commissioning the valuable time and energy of a high-level caster to make it).

That's what I try to do now, but my problem has been the "out of character" barrage of emails, etc. Basically it's players trying to haggle with the Dm as opposed the characters haggling with merchants.

Alcamtar · Dec 9, 2002

Just a couple of ideas that I plan to use if/when I ever run 3E again. (I had the same problem in my last campaign)

(1) The DMG is off-limits to players at the gaming table. As Gygax used to put it, "any player caught with a DMG or MM at the table is less than worthly of an honorable death!" This can also be used to prevent metagaming summoned beasties, since players can no longer read through the stat block(s) at the table.

(2) The DMG is not a rulebook for the players. Anything not in the PHB is GM discretion ONLY -- including item prices, availability, and creation requirements. If a player is caught quoting a rule in the DMG or using OOC knowledge, the DM immediately changes it to something arbitrary, making that knowledge worthless. This is not meant to be unfair, but to take away the reward incentive for "cheating". (And I suspect that most players will not want to give the GM cause for changing anything arbitrarily!)

(3) All magical items require, at minimum, two things in addition to whatever is in the DMG: special knowledge, and special materials. This means if they want to create something, they need to either find a formula or research it (taking extra time and resources), and they also need special materials that are not readily available at the local magic shoppe. Once a formula is known (and formulas should be too complex to memorize -- make the PC keep a library with this info), the character can create as many items as desired, but only so long as his supply of special materials doesn't run out

Overall this should greatly reduce PCs scoffing at what you give them and outfitting themselves with the most effective custom gear available: they won't know what a fair price is for selling (letting you rip them off with unscrupulous traders) and won't be able to easily make whatever they want, though they still can if they work at it. Also allows the DM a lot more control over what they get. Don't want them to make Winged Boots? Simply don't let them find information or ingredients need to make them, or else give them information for something *similar* that you've customized to taste.

This also gives you three new treasure items for characters: components for creating specific items, books cataloging known items and their properties, and workbooks telling how to create a specific item. Books give you something to fill wizard libraries and workshops with. If you also extend this to anything in the DMG and MM: bestiaries, poison references, gem guides, etc. Having such a book allows a player to reference a specific item out of the DMG/MM.

Anyway, just an idea. 3E seems to "default" to the straight hack-and-loot style of gaming, which streamlines a lot of possible roleplaying/plot opportunities in order to get straight to the action. A few very minor tweaks can add back a lot of flavor.

Mike

jdavis · Dec 9, 2002

That's what I try to do now, but my problem has been the "out of character" barrage of emails, etc. Basically it's players trying to haggle with the Dm as opposed the characters haggling with merchants.

The easiest way around that is to just say no. Give them the old "We'll have to roleplay that one out." or the "I haven't fleshed that part of the adventure out yet." Hopefully they'll get the picture that there is something more going on than just exchanging items for gold.

You can also play stupid, answer e-mails with things like "I'm not in DM mode right now, whats a gold piece." or "sorry I don't have a business license to deal in magic weapons."

Cedric · Dec 9, 2002

A lot of people react to the "high magic" campaign world by complaining that magic is too readily available.

Others start calculating how they can use it to their advantage.

My plan? Use some realworld economic models to gauge reactions to this such readily available magic.

Devalue simple +1 or +2 weapons to the point that selling them for anything resembling the book price becomes an impossibility. Stick to the strict rules of the Identify spell, don't let them get too much out of it.

Charge "exhorbitantly" for Analyze Dweomer to be cast. This pretty much takes a high level sorcerer/wizard out of commission for a whole day. I'm thinking 2500gp minimum.

Make magic items that do something besides just give a basic +1 or +2 that much more valuable...but only if you can demonstrate what it does that's special...or if you have a wizard marked write-up from an analyze dweomer.

Most mages guilds should be able to offer this service for the above fee...but make sure you let the PC's know about the 1-2 week waiting list. Takes a wizard awhile to get a day he can just waste..even for that much money.

If the PC's have a wizard of sufficient level to cast this spell. Make sure you stick to the rules...and never offer them enough time, as the GM to just blow on waiting for the wizard to cast this. Keep them busy...if they decide to wait a week for several items to be id'd...make sure in so doing they miss a few opportunities.

Lastly, introduce some magic items of your own to add some diversity. Not only can they not look these up in a book anywhere. But they might also take the item for something that it's not. The first time they make one of these assumptions and it burns them...well, that's what they say about what happens when you assume.

Cedric

ced1106 · Dec 9, 2002

Re: A few comments.

Arkham said:
The PCs leaving a dungeon to go sell stuff, wait to get re-equipped, and come back to finish up is the perfect time to introduce a rival team of adventurers. Have the PCs come back to the dungeon to find it stripped bare. The other adventurers heard of the PCs taking a crack at it, and coming back early with loot. So the rivals went in and cleaned out the dungeon, taking all the credit for resolving the threat and getting the best of the loot to show for it.

**SPOILER**

Monte Cook's The Banewarrens does precisely this and has some excellent examples of evidence "someone is ahead of us". The players compete against rival parties, some of which have no problem trying to kill the players. And, of course, the "other adventurers" know about the dungeon b/c they're agents of the Guild, who bought the items in the first place.

A few other thoughts about PCs selling magic items:
* Require skill rolls for Appraise and, say, Diplomacy.
* Give out less treasure.
* Cursed magic items. Nyahahahah.

Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

Dagger75 · Dec 9, 2002

Did I post that first thread. My group is the same. The probelm is they are willing to haggle over every single item and travel the multi-verse to find a buyer. I get tired of this. And down time. This group has no problems sitting down and making magic items for 3 months at a time. I have attacked them during it but now they hide in when they make there items. Since the group is now Epic and now live in Union, I just give them half price for all magic items.

Now for Epic item creation is going to change big time. Quests for the rare material required for the items. In my game Epic magic items are going to be special. That +6 battle will have a name and a history attached to it.

Thats my plan.

jasper · Dec 9, 2002

Kengar…My problem is getting these guys to STOP with the downtime!

They get halfway through a dungeon then decide "We've got enough stuff to sell for now!" Then they hoof it back to the nearest large town and are willing to sit for weeks to get upgraded gear. Then go back and finish the dungeon…

So have Peter Paladin who ate his Purple Prune Crunchies for breakfast, meet them on the way back to the dungeon.
Peter, “have no fear I Peter Paladin have cleaned out the orc nest. Just going to drop by my local church to make a donation”.

Lessen the magic. Drop all the magic items out.

Group “where is the magic items”

Dm,” Since you always sold them off board. I thought you didn’t care. So I drop them.”

Follow some of the other advice posted here.

Dingleberry · Dec 9, 2002

the Jester said:
Well, first off, how do they know what their magic items do? Are they casting analyze dweomer all the time? Cuz identify only tells you the least powerful property or spell involved in making the item. The group may well get far less than an item's worth if they're basing their sale price off identify spells.

I've modified standard magic items with additional abilities to "reward" characters who stick with found magic rather than simply cashing it in. If the players want to sell every +1 ring of protection they find, that's fine - but they might be missing out on a ring that grants a +1 deflection bonus AND casts protection from arrows when it is touched to an arrowhead.

The Sigil · Dec 9, 2002

Re-post

As a follow-up to my repost below, IIRC, someone posted words to the following effect (would give credit but can't recall who it was):

It's gonna be tough for PCs to get their hands on anything but low-grade magic items anyway because all the "good stuff" is going to be in the hands of rich collectors.

*Simpsons Comic Book Shop Owner Voice On!*

This is a +5 keen wounding shocking burst longsword created by the great archmage Oscon the Magnificent in the Second Age of the Elves. NO, you may NOT touch it! You are far beneath its majesty. I only show it to you so that you may understand that which you shall never possess. Now, take your unworthy +1 longsword and go beat up some goblins or something.

*/End Comic Book Shop Owner Voce*

In short, don't let players treat magic items like "liquid assets" - it's hard to convert items to gold to other items (let alone haul around all that gold) in the rules AS WRITTEN!

There are two things to consider here: the ability/availability of someone to buy the items from them and the ability/availability of someone to sell them the items they want. The simplest solution is: "Nobody has the item you want."

Furthermore, exactly how do they intend to transport their 50,000 gp (that's 1,000 pounds of gold) from point A to point B in the first place?

As a public service, a repost of one of my comments on an old rules thread. Here are the economic considerations, lifted straight from the DMG that your Kelly Blue Book players might (not) want to consider - because it mean that unless they hang around metropoli, their odds of playing "trade in" are slim to none. Even if they do hang around metropoli, their options in dealers are sorely limited (to maybe a half-dozen wizards/sorcerers) and you'd best believe that these guys aren't all going to be strictly nice businessmen, if you catch my meaning... ("well, I could probably find a nice set of +4 chain for you, but first, you're going to have to take care of me... there's this vampiric half-celestial gold dragon, you see, and I need his heart for some research before I can start cranking out magic items for you *Vincent Price Laugh*...")

IOW, even in a "standard DMG" world, there's no such thing as "free trade" and "liquid assets" for magic.

QUICK TREATMENT OF THE ECONOMICS OF MAGIC

City Size: Highest Level Wiz/Sor; GP Limit
Thorp: 1; 25 gp
Implication:
Nothing with a value of over 25 gp will be found here. That pretty much rules out all magic items except possibly 0th-level scrolls.

Hamlet: 2; 100 gp
Implication: You may find potions of cure light wounds and a first-level scroll. Maybe. But that's it. Local hedge wizard can't even make a +1 dagger if he wants to. Heck, he can't even find a masterwork dagger to enchant. Economy might - might - be able to support one minor potion shop.

Village: 3; 150 gp
Implication: Just like a hamlet, there really isn't much to buy here. The local wizard could make a +1 dagger, but there are no MW daggers to be found (cost over 300 gp). Economy might have one minor potion shop and/or scrolls shop but no more. No MW stuff, only 1st-level potions and scrolls. Local hedge wizard can enchant a +1 weapon - but only if you import the MW weapon for him. He won't have the resources to buy one, though.

Small Town: 4; 800 gp
Implications: Town has the resources to support a couple of potion shops, including one that makes "high-powered potions." Might see a 1st-level-spell wand shop. Supports masterwork weapons, but not magic armor, shields, or even minor wondrous items (800 gp is too little). The local hedge wizard can't brew the high-level potions though; he's only level 4. So you're looking at 1st-level wands, 1st- and 2nd- level potions and scrolls, and MW items.

Large Town: 7; 3, 000 gp
Implications: Only in a large town do you even start to see much of a market for items other than potions or scrolls. You will see the occasional +1 weapon or armor and the most minor of wondrous items. Wands might have 2nd-level power. The local wizards may be able to enchant a +2 item for you, but certainly can't buy one from you. Scrolls of 4th level and below will likely be available - but from only one source. Minor potions and scrolls are likely to be plentiful - you might see three or four potion shops.

Small City: 10; 12,000 gp
Implications: You start to see 5th-level scrolls, pretty much any potion is easy to come by, and you may find +1 and +2 weapons/armor - possibly +3 armor, though that taxes the magical resources of the town. Minor wondrous items can be had here. Most wands are probably available, too. There is likely a magic trade, but due to the fact that a typical small city has only between 1 and 4 magicians over 4th level, the trade is probably small and tightly controlled.

Large City: 13; 40,000 gp
Implications: Here, folks have the magical power and money to look at +4 weapons/armor, but they're still rare. You can get your hands on scrolls of 6th and possibly 7th level. Only in large cities do you even start seeing staffs (staves?). Potions are commonplace, as are lower level scrolls - anything you can get in a large town will be easy to find here, though more powerful items will be rarer and limited to a more exclusive group of mages (again, probably less than half a dozen). Also, have you noticed that you really can't even begin to contemplate most RINGS until you're in a large city?!?

Metropolis: 18; 90,000 gp
Implications: Scrolls (any level) and potions can be had here fairly easily. Weapons and armor of all enchantments can be made, but you're unlikely to see a weapon with an effective bonus of more than +6. Only in a metropolis are wondrous items of great power even remotely close to "widely available." However, the magical power is still somewhat consolidated - anything that would be "small and tightly controlled" in a small city is easily found here - lots of 8th and 9th level mages (comparatively) but anything beyond that in power will again be controlled by a few mages - 6 to 8 on average. Considering that metropoli tend to be seats of power, you can bet that at least one of those mages is in an advisory role to the crown (or whatever), which diminishes your chance of finding such items even more.

--The Sigil

Dareoon Dalandrove · Dec 9, 2002

I've read some really good ideas here for stopping the "magic item buy attack". For the OOC haggeling just say "I'm not going to talk about it" and stick to your guns. They'll get the idea. i'll add also that if your party stops in the middle of the dungeon and goes to reequip, fortify the dungeon again. They don't want to see things through pick them apart.
You know what you want and have to do just do it.

DM Advice on dealing with PCs buying/selling magic items

kengar

First Post

Alcamtar

Explorer

jdavis

First Post

Cedric

First Post

ced1106

Explorer

Dagger75

Epic Commoner

jasper

Rotten DM

Dingleberry

First Post

The Sigil

Mr. 3000 (Words per post)

Dareoon Dalandrove

First Post

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