D&D 5E How Magical or Non-Magical Should the Monk Be?

Tovec

Explorer
Nope, my point is about the Monk, specifically (though there have been a few other classes that it might also apply to). The Monk archetype is a culture-specific one - to be uncharitable, it's not even cultural so much as the mis-perception of cultures sometimes labeled 'orientalism.'

The arguments against a culture specific class (setting aside the political) include that they are too narrow to be useful, that they are redundant with other classes, and that they bring 'baggage' that 'taints' settings to which the culture is inappropriate.

I was pointing out the second one. Not that monk could be modeled with a combination of fighter, rogue & spellcaster, but that, stripped of psuedo-cultural baggage, it could be a more generic martial class (like the Fighter /or/ the Rogue, depending on concept) or simply a psionic class (like in 4e). The Monk could work as a Background, PrC, or other add-on option that captured cultural influences or otherwise let you customize to a specific concept. But a martial artist is just very good at fighting, which is the Fighter's bailiwick, and we don't need another class that's best at fighting.
You obviously didn't read beyond the part you quoted. I suggested you go back and do so. What you didn't read was what we call an argument with actual premises. Such as the monk NOT fitting the abilities of any of the four classes. Again, go back and read it.

Beyond that, it makes me wonder what you would do with paladin, druid, assassins (because assassins are too culturally specific because they come from a culture), bards, barbarians and really ANY class that inst one of the main four. Are they not allowed?

I'd like the monk to be all kinds of magical...

...and for it to still fail him if he tries to go toe-to-toe with the Fighter.
Replace magical with mystical and I agree. I've never seen the monk as magical.

[MENTION=14506]Sadrik[/MENTION] That " That' " was supposed to be "That's exactly what I did in my games, works great."
 

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Sadrik

First Post
For a mystical monk and non-mystical monk, they could have a limited spell list, just recast as special abilities. They could select these, or they could select combat feats. In most cases they would select a combination of both, however they may go all one way or another. So that would require a spell list and a feat list. Then they select one per level or something. If it was this way, they should not have the fighter's HD. I can even envision different orders having slightly different selections. Pretty cool if done this way. Basically a rogue who buffs himself with feats and spells (and again spells is the loose term for their monk powers). Heck might even play a class like that. As long as it is not tied to an Asian theme...
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Such as the monk NOT fitting the abilities of any of the four classes.
There are two extremes of the monk concept under discussion here. The non-magical Monk would work as a martial class. It's true that martial classes are unduly restricted in what they can do in most versions of D&D (a flaw in the game that goes back to the introduction of the Thief) but, if allowed competence, a Rogue or Fighter build could very easily cover a non-magical monk concept (depending, sadly, on whether the concept is more combat- or skill- oriented).

The magical (or mystical) monk is pretty handily covered by psionics, and an 'internal' psionic class more generic than the monk would be a better way of handling that sort of monk concept, along with the potential for other, non-culture-bound concepts.

Beyond that, it makes me wonder what you would do with paladin, druid, assassins (because assassins are too culturally specific because they come from a culture), bards, barbarians and really ANY class that inst one of the main four.
The Assassin concept isn't cultural - hired and/or political murderers are darn near universal, sadly. But it is more an activity than a class. A hired killer could kill with weapons, poisons, traps, spells, trained monsters, or whatever...

Now, the shadow-magic take on the Assassin might be another story...

Bards are clearly inspired by the Celtic tradition, but they've been scrubbed of just about all of that, and given a lot of arcane magic, as well. They're their own class at this point, I suppose.

Barbarian implies a culture. Battle-rager might be a better name for the class. The idea is a warrior who taps primal rage instead of developing disciplined combat skills like the Fighter.


Replace magical with mystical and I agree.
What's the distinction, there, exactly?
 



Between 3e and 4e, I think they've done a good job at removing a lot of the so-called cultural baggage tied to the Monk. Book of 9 Swords was also a good source for having a bunch of martial arts that didn't too much cultural baggage. Though you could connect some of the schools to certain real world Martial Arts styles both Eastern and Western, they weren't strong connections.

I'm quite in favour of having the Monk as a psionic class, as they've clearly shown you don't have to have power points for a class to be psionic. In terms of power, I also don't see the Monk in being the best for direct damage, but I think in terms of inflicting conditions (Stunning Fist, Tripping) and utilities they'll probably be higher on list than Fighters.

And for anyone suggesting that they shouldn't make the Monk into a class, it seems pretty clear the 5e design team, is never going to follow anyone's suggestion that there should only be 4 classes. Think of all the people who wouldn't pick up the new edition because there were no Monks, Barbarians, Rangers, Druids and so on, and that's something that WotC wouldn't want in trying to get the new edition accepted.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Between 3e and 4e, I think they've done a good job at removing a lot of the so-called cultural baggage tied to the Monk.
Moderately so. Switching from 'Ki' to Psionic was a fairly aggressive, if nominal, move away from 'orientalism,' even if the ultimate concept: that eastern fighting styles need a supernatural power system all their own to model, while western ones are OK with the odd fighter build, still smacks of it.

And for anyone suggesting that they shouldn't make the Monk into a class, it seems pretty clear the 5e design team, is never going to follow anyone's suggestion that there should only be 4 classes.
While we've been going on about the Monk's appropriateness as a class, it's in not one but two PH1s (3e & 1e), so it's certainly in. That aspect of the discussion, while interesting, is moot.
 

Tovec

Explorer
There are two extremes of the monk concept under discussion here. The non-magical Monk would work as a martial class. It's true that martial classes are unduly restricted in what they can do in most versions of D&D (a flaw in the game that goes back to the introduction of the Thief) but, if allowed competence, a Rogue or Fighter build could very easily cover a non-magical monk concept (depending, sadly, on whether the concept is more combat- or skill- oriented).
There we go, actual arguments. Okay. The problem is simply put: that monks are a good 5th class. Their abilities do not fall into the simple 4 man arrangement as many other classes do.
They have some combat prowess of fighters, and certainly some skills or acrobatic mastery as rogues but attempting to build a monk out of each of these is really off. Even creating a monk out of a multiclass would ignore its (self) healing (a cleric ability). And random extra powers that rogues don't get. That psudo-magical feel is elements of wizard without being wizardy or even sorcerery. In short, they are some fighting, some skills. Not really one or the other.

The magical (or mystical) monk is pretty handily covered by psionics, and an 'internal' psionic class more generic than the monk would be a better way of handling that sort of monk concept, along with the potential for other, non-culture-bound concepts.
Psionics has a significant feel in DnD. If you mean 'mind-powered' that is fairly inaccurate too. Examples from 3e would be the psychic warrior or soulknife. A monk is really neither. It isn't a power manifested from their mind as it is a power manifested from their soul. It has a cleric feel (background?) because it is almost religious in nature. A monk should be more enlightened than anything. Again TLDR: psionics already has a feel which is 'psionic' whereas monk is 'mystical' or 'religious'. So not a great fit as far as I see.

The Assassin concept isn't cultural - hired and/or political murderers are darn near universal, sadly. But it is more an activity than a class. A hired killer could kill with weapons, poisons, traps, spells, trained monsters, or whatever...
Hired killers, usually brigands, are common. Killers striking from the shadows are fairly ninja-y. Assassins bridge the two and you think deserve to be their own thing. For some reason though you think monks don't and I don't get that distinction.

Bards are clearly inspired by the Celtic tradition, but they've been scrubbed of just about all of that, and given a lot of arcane magic, as well. They're their own class at this point, I suppose.
Bards have far surpassed what celtic roots. So can (and in certain circles have) monks. Bards are now about knowledge and stories and (most recently) about music. I think that is a change not necessarily for the better but they have come into their own. If they get the right inspiration I'm sure monks can do this too. Beyond that, bards are skill-mages and that doesn't seem to befuddle you as much.

Barbarian implies a culture. Battle-rager might be a better name for the class. The idea is a warrior who taps primal rage instead of developing disciplined combat skills like the Fighter.
Barbarians are those things knocking at your gates but they have acquired the rage ability. Some would compare raging to flurry. But monks are too 'oriental' and barbarians are fine? They aren't too roman for you? Or is something that comes from 'western' society fine and anything from 'asian' bad?

I also notice you didn't touch paladin or druid. I'm sure I could dig up more classes that were in PHB 1. Really anything that wasn't one of the core four. My point is all classes deserve to be there. The asian theme might be the least nuanced example that WotC wants to go with. I wouldn't have a problem if they did the same thing with assassins (likening them to ninjas) but you seemed to object.

Replace magical with mystical and I agree.
What's the distinction, there, exactly?
Magical implies (and often provides) magical spells as a power source. It is the same problem as saying psionic. Both magic and psionics are already a source and while you CAN say monks have power similar to say that all monks come from those sources is, again, inaccurate.

Monks are much more. If magic is best thought of (in the arcane/wizard sense) the understanding and application of forces in the world and psionics the understanding and application of the power of the mind then I would say both are close but wrong. Just as I would say that psionics doesn't accurately portray most wizards.

Now if you would say mystical then you are talking about something else. Something purposely undefined. It is not a power of the gods, or of nature or of anything except the power of self.* Monks gain power from another source, that source is usually inside them, somewhere.

The examples of monks I loved from earlier were jedi. They have a literal power they call the force. Where does that force come from? "Inside all living things," to paraphrase Old Ben. What about the bene gesserit? Again, that is a force from inside themselves, when they learn to become more than they are. When they learn to hone themselves. Monks are the same.



*I would say sorcerers if viewed differently than they are could fall under this same sphere. I'm not saying monks are the only class that should be 'mystical' but I am saying monks ARE mystical instead of merely magical.
 

thewok

First Post
I would rather the monk be more in the 3E vein rather than the 4E. I'm fine with wuxia (though, I tend not to like the Eastern injection in my traditionally western games. It's very jarring to immersion for me), but I'd rather save the Last Airbender stuff for Oriental Adventures 5E or something.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The problem is simply put: that monks are a good 5th class. Their abilities do not fall into the simple 4 man arrangement as many other classes do.
That's a problem with the 3.x version of the Monk, true. It lacked focus and was a '5th wheel' that served no real purpose. But I'd say that was more a result of casting about for a way to differentiate a concept that didn't /need/ to be differentiated in the first place.

A monk concept that is simply a 'martial artist' needn't be differentiated from concepts like a swashbuckler or duelist or sword-dancing TWFer or the like. Mobile light fighters - something D&D has rarely done that well, with it's bizarre armor fetish - nothing more. Rather than making a narrow-concept class like the Monk based on orientalism, it would be better to expand the fighter to finally handle the light/mobile concepts better (regardless of source of inspiration), or, if the hoary sacred cow that says class must be married to armor worn can't be butchered, another stab made at a duelist or other formidable light/mobile class without the Monk's 70's Kung Fu legacy.


That psudo-magical feel is elements of wizard without being wizardy or even sorcerery. In short, they are some fighting, some skills. Not really one or the other.
That gets back into the question of how magical the Monk concept is. It's interesting to note that, while the Fighter and Rogue face implacable double-standards that force crushing mundanity upon them, the Monk faces an equally jaundiced 'orientalist' perception that attributes to supernatural elements the things accomplished by RL fighting style.

psionics already has a feel which is 'psionic' whereas monk is 'mystical' or 'religious'. So not a great fit as far as I see.
Religious would be divine, and, while there was such a Monk kit in 2e, it didn't make much of an impression, IIRC.


Now if you would say mystical then you are talking about something else. Something purposely undefined. It is not a power of the gods, or of nature or of anything except the power of self.* Monks gain power from another source, that source is usually inside them, somewhere.
As are psionics, the power of the self, specifically the mind. Fighters also tap the power of the self, a disciplined mind & well-trained body. The only distinction between the martial arts of a 'monk' and those of a 'knight' or 'fencer' is the culture they come from. The monk, seen as exotic, is credited with mystic/supernatural abilities, while the more familiar rapier-wielder is just a guy with a pointy bit of wire.
 

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