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Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 05:45 PM #61
Grandmaster of Flowers (Lvl 18)
Point of information 2: Why shouldn't monks with their training on ... interesting ground get trap finding?
but it is certainly as much rogue as it is fighter. It is a 'martial' class that uses skills (or tricks or w/e) to provide extra ability beyond simply standing there and fighting.
Has it been designed poorly in the past? Possibly but that doesn't invalidate the attempts.As far as the 'contemplative' class. I think that is much more spot on. What other classes are even trying for that role?
Who says that monks can't have martial arts while letting every other (or any other) class have unarmed abilities too?
Even with the core four you have niche protection. The wizard isn't going to have the armor or weapons of a fighter and a fighter isn't going to have the spells of a wizard.
Also, if anything monk is that one class that belongs as a hybrid of fighter and rogue unlike any other class.
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Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 05:55 PM #62
The 4E monk actually built on the 3E Swordsage heavily, and you can find powers that are straight up lifted from the Swordsage, with different wording (that jump power is very suspiciously like a Teleport power the Swordsage could pick up, Dragon Tail Kick was lifted straight from Desert Wind, etc.).
To be a class you should bring something totally unique to the table. There were a few classes that broke this rule in 3E, and without exception every single one ended up a weaker version of some other class. The Ranger stacked up miserably next to the Druid, the Sorcerer just ended up looking like a 2nd class Wizard (which is still... quite good), the Monk looked like a joke next to a fighter (flurry of misses indeed) or a barbarian, etc.
4E really did bring the focus back to 'every class should be a unique thing.' You don't have to take it as far as 4E did, but every class should have a reason for its existence. A mobile, mystical warrior who can perform feats and maneuvers that do far more than "more damage" or "more defense" is worthy of existing. A guy who goes into battle with no armor and no weapons... really isn't.
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 06:02 PM #63
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 06:03 PM #64
So are we agreed then? The Magical Monk who shoots fire and leaps 15' in up and 40' across and explodes people's heads Fist of the North Star Style is just an unarmed take on the Mystical Warrior shitck? He's a dodgy Gish.The 4E monk actually built on the 3E Swordsage heavily, and you can find powers that are straight up lifted from the Swordsage, with different wording (that jump power is very suspiciously like a Teleport power the Swordsage could pick up, Dragon Tail Kick was lifted straight from Desert Wind, etc.).
Also, traditional fighting monks indeed do no do most of their damage unarmed. The Okinawan Monk used farming tools etc. due to Japanese weapon-control laws. The Chinese monks used military-grade pole-arms, bows, and swords.
- Marty Lund
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 06:06 PM #65
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 06:09 PM #66
Also, monks could be armed in 4E, and often got bonuses and powers that only worked when armed. They really liked maces (okay, blunt objects that hit people) and quarterstaves, but they had powers for a variety of weapons.
So "unarmed" isn't the schtick, it's the mobile and mystical warrior. That truly is something unique to the game (and a Fighter/Wizard multiclass does NOT do that).
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 06:29 PM #67
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 06:37 PM #68
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 06:47 PM #69
But those things all feel like gimmicks, Steely.
Increased Speed: Easily granted from a commonly-cast spell, monk speed does not stack.
Heal Themselves: Fighters can do that in pretty much any edition.
Bunch of Resistances: Meh, cute
Talk to plants/animals: Meh cute
It's not a real class, it's a collection of cute gimmicks. The 3E monk was the weakest class in the players handbook, and its not even a very close margin. Building an effective monk was literally impossible.
The monk needs more than its 3E gimmicks to be a class.
Wednesday, 10th October, 2012, 06:57 PM #70
2.) Not a prominent feature in fighting monks or martial-artists of any stripe - it's a left-over from occidental stereotypes of oriental mysticism and maybe one too many re-runs of the "Kung Fu" television series.
1.) It was a bad mechanic as implemented in previous editions-increased speed
2.) It's nearly irrelevant to combat, exploration, and interaction pillars
3.) Hard to capitalize on or integrate into a team game
4.) I don't want to adjust jumping mechanics based on land-speed
1.) Everyone can heal themselves with Hit Dice in 5E and as a Fighter the Martial Artist is the best at it.-Heal themselves
2.) Mid-combat healing is more restricted in 5E.
3.) 4E Fighters could already self-heal with powers.
4.) The Martial Arist Combat Superiority tree could easily include an option to use Hit Dice mid-combat.
1.) Another great example of bad, insular character class design around denial mechanics-Extra Resistance to ESP/mind attacks
2.) Fighters are already supposed to have extra resistance to such things.
3.) Cuts into the Elven racial ability - terrible for a class that should be open for everyone, OK for a specialty.
1.) Another example of bad, insular character class design around denial mechanics - seriously, what good is it to a party to have one guy randomly immune to falling?-Fall great distances unharmed
1.) Another example of bad, insular character class design around denial mechanics-Extra resistance to disease/poison
2.) Cuts into the Dwarven racial ability - terrible for a class that should be open for everyone, OK for a specialty.
It all just illustrates how big a train-wreck the AD&D / 3E monk class was. He's a giant pile of exceptions that does not do team work. He's story is as thus: "Look at me! What can I do? Oh, I'm immune to A through Z. How do I contribute to the party? Um ... well ... I do front-line combat! Um ... well, yeah, basically all I do is miss every round ... and yeah, I can't take much damage. Well, yeah, the monsters can just ignore me with impunity - but hey, look at all my special-snowflake bells and whistles I got in exchange to balance my class. I'm immune to mind-control and the common cold! Hey, guys, where are you going? Guys? Aw come on!"
AD&D/3E Monk - he knows Kung Fu and he's still one of the last guys to get picked for the dodge-ball team.
The lesson here is not to weigh down a class with a bunch of man-of-steel trinkets because when it comes time to add in abilities that actually contribute to the team goals of the party he'll either be unbalanced (full character + trinkets) or unhelpful (balance down to compensate for said trinkets).
Within the class keep it pithy and relevant - two things the old-school monk is awful for.
- Marty Lund