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Thread: Given the choice...
Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 05:55 PM #1
Spellbinder (Lvl 16)
Given the choice...
Let's assume that allll of the classes form the PHBs are all in their...exactly the way you want them.
There is space left for onnnnnne/1/uno/un/eins/ONE more class.
Do you use the space for:
A) A Psychic/Psionic/guy with mental powers class
B) A spellsword/swordmage/"gish"/guy with a sword who casts spells class?
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Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 06:28 PM #2
Grandfather of Assassins (Lvl 19)
I'd rather all the psychic abilities just be listed as "spells" in the spell list (like in the days of old with clairvoyance, ESP, telekinesis, telepathy etc. etc.), and then have two Sorcerer Origins that give us the gish and psion. As I would prefer each Origin to have its own spell list just like each Cleric Domain is supposed to have its own spell list... you can separate out the psychic abilities into the Psion Sorcerer's list, and the swordmagic abilities into the Gish list.
No need for new classes at all.
Truth be told... if we were to have space for one new class beyond the PHB ones... I'd prefer the Shaman. I think we need another spellcasting class that is more nature/spirit/animist in form. We've got the two "arcanist" spellcasters in the Wizard and Sorcerer, the two "make deals with higher powers" spellcasters in the Cleric and Warlock... having a Druid and Shaman (especially for our more monstrous races like orcs, gnolls, minotaurs etc.) makes more sense.
Last edited by DEFCON 1; Sunday, 7th October, 2012 at 06:35 PM.
Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 07:05 PM #3
Myrmidon (Lvl 10)
Given a choice between psionics and gish, I would choose psionics. The game is going to have some sort of multiclass rules, so maybe they'll get it right for fighter/magic-users.
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Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 07:28 PM #4
Since psionics were in the 1e PHB, I feel the psion should be a core class in Next--and not as an appendix.
If psionics are going to be part of D&D (as they have been for 30 years) let's stop treating them like the red-headed step-child. They are firmly established in genre literature as phenomena different from magic in both character and flavor. I believe that, from the beginning, Next should give DMs who want to model that type of story element clear and balanced tools for doing do.
Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 07:42 PM #5
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
The gish is such a popular archetype that it really should be included in the 5E PHB. Wizard/fighter multiclass doesn't really cut it.
Psionics should be a module. IMHO they are totally superfluous to the core setting of a fantasy game, but because of their historical associations, should be available for specific campaigns.
Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 08:48 PM #6
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
First of all, "Gish" is a term specifically for a githyanki fighter/mage, so I see no need to have it in the PH at all.
I also see no need for a core psion, personally; I like psionics, but think they go better in a supplement so that psionics-haters can ignore them.
So I'd use the space for something other than a class.
Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 08:49 PM #7
Lama (Lvl 13)
Psion. It has a long history and identity in D&D.
Which isn't to say I don't want a swordmage or the like. D&D has done this many times, but I feel like it never settled on one. There's a similar non-commitment to the psion/fighter type character, with the psychic warrior being a strong presence in Third Edition, but absent from Fourth.
Additionally, part of me thinks that the swordmage and the psychic warrior should be options for the fighter in high level play.
Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 08:54 PM #8
Lama (Lvl 13)
Psion (but called something else, plz). If the multiclass system can't make a viable fighter/mage, then the game isn't finished yet.
Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 08:58 PM #9
Guide (Lvl 11)
There are large questions about B that I have and they relate directly to:
1) The relatively weak "payload" of 5e feats as PC Build Resources with respect to the "payload" of 5e Class Features.
2) Whether or not 5e is going to include unique Paragon/Prestige Classes (the answer to this seems to be all over to the place).
There are a number of iterations of Fighter/Mages ("Gish" classes) that are quite distinct from one another (from both a mechanical standpoint and the accompanying fiction/archetypes that those mechanics represent). I'll outline the primary 4 that I can think off of of the top of my head:
1) Bladesinger (Primarily Duelist Fighter with secondary arcane support. This class is probably the most "Jedi" of the classes and is basically a re-skinned Martial/Arcane monk who uses a sword):
Proficiencies/Primary Attributes: Light armor, One-handed swords. Dexterity and Intelligence.
Defense - Relies primarily on borderline supernatural speed and tactical mobility/spell-casting (abjurations and transmutations) and finesse/speed based swordplay.
Offense - Martial Blade-flurries (speed and precision) primarily. Has limited use marriage of spell-casting and swordplay to attack with both simultaneously.
2) Spellsword (Primarily Slayer Fighter with secondary arcane support. This class is very much the "Arcane Warrior" from Dragon Age. Very Fighter/Cleric-like in "feel."):
Proficiencies/Primary Attributes: Heavy armor, Heavy weapons. Strength and Intelligence.
Defense - Relies primarily on Heavy Armor as archetype is the only Fighter/Mage able to cast spells while in Heavy Armor.
Offense - Able to Channel Spells directly through Melee Attacks.
3) Hexblade (Fighter/Warlock hybrid rather than F/M. Like the standard Warlock, this class makes bargains with extra-planar Powers - Abyssal, Infernal, Fey, Shadow - for their extreme, yet dangerous, might)
Proficiencies/Primary Attributes: Light/Medium armor, Light or Heavy weapons. Charisma and Constitution (or Dexterity).
Defense - Contingent upon extra-planar Power bargained with, will leverage either Light Armor and Dex or Medium Armor. Access to powerful warlock spells/summons to augment defense.
Offense - Access to powerful warlock spells/summons to augment martial offense.
4) Swordmage (The only "hybrid" that is almost exclusively a Wizard. Martial is very secondary for this class. The most "Gish"-like of the classes given its heavy use of teleport effects. Basically a Wizard trained for infantry, front-line combat who channels spells through a sword):
Proficiencies/Primary Attributes: Light armor, One-handed swords. Intelligence and Constitution (or Strength).
Defense - Light Armored warrior who relies primarily on powerful Warding spells and arcane spells (Teleports) to augment tactical mobility. Melee Defender with ranged action denial/control (or action denial/catch 22 by proxy of Marking/teleport system).
Offense - Almost exclusively through Arcane, control, AoE spells channeled through sword. Contingent upon Swordmage Discipline, may have secondary damage source through Marking/teleport system.
These builds/archetypes are all extremely different from one another mechanically and within the fiction. Given the lack of "potency of payload" inherent to feats/specialties (at least in this iteration) and nothing resembling their distinct mechanics within current class build structure, I am QUITE unconvinced that standard, generic multi-classing and feats/specialties will produce the distinct mechanics and resultant fiction of these builds/archetypes at this point. If that is so then they either must be classes of their own or there must be a strong Paragon/Prestige Class system. So if they have no Paragon/Prestige Class rules then I lean toward your option B. However, there must be multiple classes. My preference would be a much better payload for Feats/Specialties and a strong Multi-Class system.
Sunday, 7th October, 2012, 09:27 PM #10
Magsman (Lvl 14)
Good multi-classing rules, yes. A class that exists as a kludge for inadequate M-C'ing, please, no.B) A spellsword/swordmage/"gish"/guy with a sword who casts spells class?
By BrooklynKnight in forum RPGs & Tabletop Gaming DiscussionReplies: 3Last Post: Monday, 20th January, 2003, 10:57 AM