D&D 5th Edition October Playtest Packet - Magic Items, Updated XP, Monster Traits - Page 12




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  1. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Olgar Shiverstone View Post
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    Or the Ogre, who only has 18 STR.
    .....huh. That's weird.

 

  • #112
    Quote Originally Posted by GX.Sigma View Post
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    .....huh. That's weird.
    In'it, though?

    The Ogre needs a magic item to get ogre strength.
    "The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru

  • #113
    Not really a fan of items that change ability scores (or anything that + or - ability scores during play)

    I think that could rather use the space to make more interesting items.

  • #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manbearcat View Post
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    Ok. We have so far in the playtest:

    - Hide/Move Silently married as "Stealth".

    - Spot/Listen married as "Perception".

    - Stealth Mechanical Resolution Rules. These rules specificially speak to the "Hide" and "Spot" portion of the Stealth:Perception relationship - eg you must have concealment/cover or something to intervene between Line of Sight. (i) They do not speak to the "Listen" and "Move Silently" portion - specifically nothing about either the "Mover" having disadvantage over antagonistic terrain (dry leaves, gravel, etc) or the "Listener" having advantage on such contests. However, we do have one area of the current ruleset that interfaces with this. (ii) Disadvantage on Stealth Checks with Heavy Armor.

    - Now we have a Cloak of Elvenkind that interacts with the "Hide:Spot" portion of the Stealth Mechanical Resolution Rules (bypasses prerequisite for conceleament). This would seem to set the standard for what the corresponding Boots "should" do. Right?

    - Wrong. The Boots have no such "Move Silently:Listen" mechanical resolution portion of the Stealth rules for them to interact with. There is no (i). We have (ii) . But (ii) is nowhere to be found in the Stealth Rules. It is in the Equipment rules and its only detached reason by proxy of implication.


    So then. We either have:

    - Boots that do nothing because there are no corresponding Stealth rules that will give the wearer advantage.

    - Boots that cancel disadvantage on Stealth checks over antagonistic terrain (dry leaves, gravel, etc) such as the disadvantage alloted to heavy armor wearers.

    - Boots that cancel advantage on percievers' Listen checks to hear the person moving over antagonistic terrain.


    Oddly incoherent and left up to interpretation. The rules are silent on this Move Silently:Listen relationship but they speak explicitly and directly the to Hide:Spot analog (indicating relevance and precedent). Therefore, many a group may never impose disadvantage on Stealth or give advantage on Listen in these scenarios. It thus opens up the paradigm whereby this vacuum of rule-space all of a sudden changes once a PC gets these Boots (in order to make the boots useful). All of a sudden, people are ad-hoc retrofitting a Move Silently:Listen rule and hard-coding it into their game so the wearer of the Boots has some mechanical advantage/use from the magic of the boots.

    Thus:

    Why is the rule not there in Stealth Rules in the first place? And then why is there no corresponding rules crunch (such as cancelling user disadvantage on Move Silently or cancelling contestant advantage on Listen) on the Boots?

    It seems to me this is either (i) Right Hand/Left Hand design incoherency, (ii) design oversight, or (iii) a "Rulings not Rules" feature....which, of course, will just become an ad-hoc, retrofitted Rule for every single table once these Boots find their way into the game (or magical Boots of Elvenkind will have no mechanical functionality).

    That is my 3rd attempt. I hope that makes sense.
    The boots make you move silently. So whenever you're trying to sneak around past someone, and the only way they would detect you is by hearing you, you don't need to make a check. You automatically succeed.

  • #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manbearcat View Post
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    I guess the whole point is, if they're going to put both of the Stealth (Hide/Move Silently) and Perception (Spot/Listen) variables together and abstract the check...and then they're going to only provide explicit rules for Line-of-Sight (as prerequisite)...it strikes me as very incoherent rules design to then use the vague "silent footpadding" for Boots of Elvenkind...and its going to create problems at the table.

    ...

    As of right now...unfortunately...I'm not sure what it does and I'm not sure how the rules are supposed to mechanically support what it does. And I don't feel very good about what that says about 5e given how important Stealth rules are to D&D...coupled with their "Rulings not Rules" philosophy that seems to extoll the virtue of holes like this as a source of "DM empowerment".
    I think it creates problems at the table only if it's a rules lawyer's table.

    It's not really about DM empowerment at all... it's about making the game for normal humans who (should) all understand something as simple as "you make no noise", rather than a game for lawyers.
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  • #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libramarian View Post
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    The boots make you move silently. So whenever you're trying to sneak around past someone, and the only way they would detect you is by hearing you, you don't need to make a check. You automatically succeed.
    I don't think that's the issue here.What I believe the man is saying is that although there are rules covering stealth in general there isn't anything specific to the different ways of being detected, that is sight sound or smell. what it has to do with these items is another question entirely.

    The boots are pretty straight forward but the cloak makes no sense at all. There is no bonus, nor does it say you become invisible in certain terrain, it just gives the a chance to hide. I'm sure you don't really need a cloak to be able to hide in a forest.

  • #117
    Quote Originally Posted by tlantl View Post
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    The boots are pretty straight forward but the cloak makes no sense at all. There is no bonus, nor does it say you become invisible in certain terrain, it just gives the a chance to hide. I'm sure you don't really need a cloak to be able to hide in a forest.
    I think that it's more the matter of being in plain sight and not crouching behind a tree, think about Frodo and Sam near the black gate in the second movie.

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  • #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Li Shenron View Post
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    I think it creates problems at the table only if it's a rules lawyer's table.

    It's not really about DM empowerment at all... it's about making the game for normal humans who (should) all understand something as simple as "you make no noise", rather than a game for lawyers.
    File along with items that:

    • make your eyes glow red
    • make your shield shiny
    • give you perfect pitch

    All of these things could be used well by enterprising players, and be adjudicated by DMs.

    But it's not IMO rules lawyering to expect an explanation of a game mechanic effect, associated with a game item. I would prefer each magic item had such a thing (e.g. advantage on intimidation, disadvantage on diplomacy when you have glowing red eyes). You can still have rulings-not-rules and treat mechanics as guidelines with this setup.

    Really that's one of the things I'd be paying my cash for: I can imagine fantasy trope stuff on the fly quick enough, usually too much to actually include in the game - I don't need a list of magic items to feed the creativity. However, I can't ad-lib in a consistent and workable rule for each item at anything like the same rate. So I pay for someone else's thoughts on the matter, written down.

  • #119
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    Perhaps this effort will have some explanatory power:

    In your adjudication of Stealth rules are you planning on (from the beginning of your game onward) (i) giving the Stealth-user disadvantage (or the Perceiver advantage) on all contests whereby the ground/terrain/footing is not agreeable/conducive to being quiet? This would include:

    - Almost all wilderness settings (certainly all forest settings).
    - A considerable number of closed rooms with marble, stone or some sort of composite flooring and stone walls.
    - Gravelled, dry soil or muddy roadways.
    - Older buildings with wooden flooring or sub-flooring.
    - Trafficked areas with lots of obstructions that must be navigated.
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    These boots seem to imply that you should do so (at the very beginning of your game…not just post-hoc once the boots come in). (ii) I hope we can agree that the above scenarios are the vast, vast majority of gaming scenarios. About the only type of scenario I can think of that is excluded (where the accoustics of the ground/room interface with your feet is not antagonistic toward sneaking/being stealthy) is open, urban areas (not alleys whereby the acoustics are conducive to soundwaves reverberating) with well cobbled/smooth roads.
    <O
    (iii) If the above is true, then it strikes me as terribly odd, inconsistent and incoherent that an entry (which would canvass the vast majority of Stealth contests) is not explicitly in the Stealth rules (as the Line of Sight rules are).
    <O
    It would have never occurred to me to do (i). But if the boots are going to have mechanical impact (and the game is going to make sense) then they must. They say that you should (iv) give the user disadvantage (or the perceiver advantage) on almost all Stealth scenarios…and that these boots should cancel that (dis)advantage.
    <O
    If you are planning on doing (i), and you agree with (ii) and are going to use (iv) to express the boots mechanically, then how is it that you do not agree with (iii)?
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  • #120
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    manbearcat is absolutely right. I think that he is just finding it difficult to explain his point.

    Perhaps a simple example will help.

    Your PC is in the forest and trying to sneak up on a guard.

    How would you handle that when the PC
    1) Has no magic items
    2) Has an Elven cloak
    3) Has Elven boots
    4) Has BOTH elven boots and cloak

    How much table variation would you expect in the answers to the above?

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