D&D 5th Edition Oh Hai Katana! - Page 6





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Thread: Oh Hai Katana!

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely_Dan View Post
    That conjures up a one-handed horseman's blade for me.

    Brian's idea of "Gross Messer" doesn't sound appealing and "badly balanced, overly short, two handed saber" is just way too long.

    Back to the drawing board.

 

  • #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daggerswan View Post
    If it will make you feel any better, I am equally opposed to the kukri. The khopesh is Egyptian so I have no problems with it, but I didn't think it was in the playtest. What the hell is a katar? Are you making stuff up?

    Back in my 2E days in the Army, I knew a guy from St Charles who played rangers that dual-wielded katanas. Is that you Brian? Quit messing around.
    No. My name is Mark; I do fight case (two swords) occasionally, but typically rapier and dagger. I don't study katana; as I said, I consider them inferior, unbalanced sabers.

    I'm not messing around. The khopesh, a bronze age weapon that basically plain sucks, has less business being in a game of Medieval combat than the katana. Basically, I'm just completely disagreeing with your premise, that somehow Eastern derived weapons should for some reason not be included in the core rules. And for the record, I'm the guy who is standing four-square against the inclusion of kung fu monks, for different reasons.

    Dungeons and Dragons isn't even directly based on European history. It's based on fiction that kinda, sorta, loosely was based on European history, with a whole lot of 1001 Nights, kung fu movies, et cetera thrown in. The original game even includes Eastern style monsters like the Ogre Mage. The AD&D Deities & Demigods included pantheons for India, China, Babylonians, Sumerians, Japan, et cetera.

    The technology level of most published game worlds, including Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, appears to be around the 16th Century, incidentally after the discovery of the New World, so lets throw the Mayans and the Aztecs in there.

    I do have a small objection to katanas having their own entry. I think the scimitar or longsword already adequately covers the mechanics of the katana as well. I find them no more finessable, if not less so than equal length European swords that are designed for use in one hand. But that's the same reason I don't want an entry for yataghans, and asseghai. That doesn't mean we have to leave them out until we have an "Africa" supplement.

    What I want is an equipment list that adequately covers any real world culture I choose to include, or a made up culture, like for instance the Wheel of Time, that has katanas while not having a specifically "Japanese" culture in the world. Unique weapons, like the South American bolo and atlatl, the Afghani kukri, or some of the Asian weapons like the meteor hammer should be included.

    I strenuously object to the idea that default D&D ever has been or should be based only on Medieval Europe.

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    If there's an issue with which name the sword should have, why not just call it "curved sword" (or "curved longsword" if you want to leave space for the wakizashi)?

  • #54
    Curved longsword sounds good to me. The sound of it reminds me of Brian's cousin. She was hot.

  • #55
    Hm, I think I'd be happy with the scimitar being placed with the saber, an entry for a longsaber replacing the katana, and "special" being added to the longsword entry. Under long-sword it would read that a longsword, when wielded in two hands, may use Strength modifier or Dexterity Modifier for attacks. It's still a Martial weapon, though. Also, drop the weight down to 3 lbs.

    I'd also love to see the Broadsword added to Heavy Weapons as a 1d10 one-handed weighing in at 4lbs. or so. Bastard swords at 5lbs. and the Greatsword at 6lbs. would suit me fine enough.

    - Marty Lund
    Last edited by mlund; Wednesday, 10th October, 2012 at 10:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlund View Post
    Hm, I think I'd be happy with the scimitar being placed with the saber, an entry for a longsaber replacing the katana, and "special" being added to the longsword entry. Under long-sword it would read that a longsword, when wielded in two hands, may use Strength modifier or Dexterity Modifier for attacks. It's still a Martial weapon, though. Also, drop the weight down to 2 lbs.

    I'd also love to see the Broadsword added to Heavy Weapons as a 1d10 one-handed weighing in at 4lbs. or so. Bastard swords at 5lbs. and the Greatsword at 7lbs. would suit me fine enough.

    - Marty Lund
    To your first paragraph; this is something the Conan RPG did that I thought was pretty nice. The Arming Sword, and I believe a few others were finessable when using them in 2 hands. Which makes some sense. By holding them in 2 hands you've got more control and are better able to place them exactly where you want them (ie, draw cut along the neck).

    Plus, this set up the dex based characters to fight like Valeria in the Conan movie, (the Arnold one).

    That's one thing I like about the inclusion of the katana. It provides that sort of light two-handed slasher to fill in for swords like Valerias, a light dualling longsword, or heron mark blades, or whatever I need it for. Calling it a katana just gives it an evocative name for people who think katanas are cool.

  • #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Daggerswan View Post
    Brian's idea of "Gross Messer" doesn't sound appealing and "badly balanced, overly short, two handed saber" is just way too long.

    Back to the drawing board.

    Well, not really..."...the Lady of the Lake..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salamandyr View Post
    Unique weapons, like the South American bolo and atlatl, the Afghani kukri, or some of the Asian weapons like the meteor hammer should be included.
    I wonder if there really are /unique/ weapons. The atl-atl is the same sort of leverage-based spear thrower as used in Australia and Africa, and probably far back into prehistory. Bolas also may have gone back to the paleolithic. The kukri is shaped like the falcata of ancient Iberia, kopis of ancient Greece, and Ottoman yatagan. And the meteor hammer is just another variation on the flail (come to think of it, the bolas is a throwing-flail).

    So, yes, a generic weapon list, one that doesn't limit itself to a given culture or narrow historical period would be best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salamandyr View Post
    I strenuously object to the idea that default D&D ever has been or should be based only on Medieval Europe.
    I think you should read the "Loyal Readers" section of Dragon Magazine #67 from November 1982. Gary Gygax pretty much all but comes out and says that D&D's default cultural template and set of assumptions is essentially European medieval fantasy.

    He mentions that he intended to move the monk class to an appendix and states that adding a samurai class would be "compounding error" and that such classes belong in "an Oriental-based game." He believed that non-European Medieval themed classes and their associated trappings (notably, he mentions arms and armour) should be saved for "...another version of the AD&D game system which is based on Sino-Japanese culture." He even goes so far as to call for "special rules" for when Eastern and Western cultures encounter one another. Clearly, the game's creator intended for the game to feature a firm boundary between East & West.

    So, yeah: default D&D was--at least in the mind of its creator--based on Medieval Europe, and he makes it pretty plain in the article mentioned above.

    Now, mind you, I'm not arguing that it still should be based on Medieval Europe anymore, but let's be honest with ourselves--the game did have a heavy Euro-Medieval flavor in its early years.
    Last edited by ArmoredSaint; Thursday, 11th October, 2012 at 01:19 AM.

  • #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    I wonder if there really are /unique/ weapons. The atl-atl is the same sort of leverage-based spear thrower as used in Australia and Africa, and probably far back into prehistory. Bolas also may have gone back to the paleolithic. The kukri is shaped like the falcata of ancient Iberia, kopis of ancient Greece, and Ottoman yatagan. And the meteor hammer is just another variation on the flail (come to think of it, the bolas is a throwing-flail).
    However you are still missing some other non-european weapons that happen to be unique on thier own:

    The Macuahuitl, a slashing weapon that was made by mixing a wooden core with cutting edges made of very sharp obsidian, used somewhat like a sword, but it had an effect closer to a saw, the two-handed version was capable of beheading or maiming on a single strike, basically the real-life equivalent of a vorpal sword, except it wasn't magical or a sword.

    The Katara, a "punching dual-edged shortsword" very usefull for stabbing and parrying, since the grip provides a bigger surface to block incoming attacks with while protecting the borders of the hand and wrist. Some versions even had a shield integrated that provided further protection for the hand and wrist. Weapon smiths got crazy with the katara, many weird variations existed, some had a trishula mounted instead of a blade, or multiple blades or a mechanical triple blade that could be opened once it was inside the victim's body causing more damage.

    The Chakram, a bladed steel ring, it is a throwing weapon with a long range and a good fire speed, unlike a bow (which pierces) or a sling (which provides bludgeoning damage) a Chakram slashes and is reutilizable. It can be used as a melee weapon on a pinch.

    The Wind and Fire Wheels. Like a melee chakram, but crazier, it has multiple hooks and blades that allow to trip and disarm, but also to parry, it can be used to either pierce or slash.

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