This Week in D&D

Ratskinner

Adventurer
First, thanks. Second, I agree it's not the typical interpretation around here. But "around here" also has many posters who don't like 4e. When you look at those who regularly post on the 4e boards, or who talk favourably about their 4e games and 4e experiences, I think it is less atypical. (Thought of course far from universal.)

I was talking about "around here" geographically. From what I've seen, the "lair assault" mode you describe seems more popular. Which could be wrong on lots of counts, naturally. My experiences with local players of all stripes indicates to me that a lot of the stuff we fret about online just doesn't matter to a large portion of gamers who don't go/chat online about their gaming. (For example, there is a die-hard 2e group nearby that wasn't even aware there was an Old-School Rennaisance going on.) Which, I suppose has good and bad aspects.
 

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pemerton

Legend
There sounds like there may be an excluded middle, here: You design the physics engine to deliver drama. Games do that almost automatically by the success/failure switch: there's ALWAYS anxiety about whether or not you will win, and catharsis with eradicating that tension.
In a "game mechanics as physics engine" game, the players have an incentive to take the maximum degree of preparatory steps to minimise that tension. You can see Gygax discussing it in the conclusion to his PHB, and Lewis Pulsipher talked about it a lot as well in old numbers of White Dwarf.

This leads to a game in which (for my taste, at least) preparation is over-rewarded, and hence becomes an excessive focus of play, and the goal of play-via-preparation becomes, in effect, to suck all the drama out of resolution. Scry-buff-teleport-SoD is the (notorious) paradigm of what I don't like about this sort of play.

Candy Land does that. Hell, craps does that.
I don't know Candy Land as anything but a name, but I don't think it is very intricate, nor does it have any preparation mechanics. Craps has no choices in play, nor any preparation mechanic (short of loading the dice, which of course will tend to drain away the tension around resolution - though perhaps there will be tension around discovery!).

An RPG is different in both respects - especially one with bounded accuracy. It is mechanically intricate, and it makes room for preparation.

I personally think that "fail forward", plus mechanical incentives for the players to not always want to use the biggest numbers possible (which can be achieved in various ways, including metagame rationing of the availability of the biggest numbers), are more reliable ways to ensure that the tension is retained. I prefer it if preparation is a source of colour (not mere colour, but a genuine way of colouring the consequences of resolution) rather than simply a tension-diffuser.

There's a lot of ways to solve the metagame problem of "combat is not dramatic/threatening enough" while still employing in-game logic.

For instance, instead of an arbitrary +2 bonus, you make it easy for monsters to gain Advantage on their attacks via monster traits or basic rules additions (flanking, fienting, high ground, better stealth rules, etc).
As soon as you are giving monsters the sorts of traits you talk about, or add in the sorts of rules you are talking about, in order to solve the metagame problem of "combat is not dramatic/threatening enough", you are admitting the existence of the metagame imperative. And then you want to give GMs advice about including choke points, flaking opportunities, high ground etc in their encounter designs - which, once again, is talking metagame. I simply can't see the rationale for pretending that the metagame is not there.

If you're saying that the mechanics have to also include ingame colour to explain them, well of course! That's not in dispute or even contentious in any RPG. The design question isn't whether or not there is colour, but (i) at what point is it introduced (by the designer, by the GM in the course of resolution, somewhere else?) and (ii) what are the constraints on its introduction (must it follow via ingame causal logic from earlier colour? or, for example, is a GM who is worrying that a rooftop duel is becoming boring allowed to simply stipulate "It starts raining heavily - your vision is obscured, and the tiles are very slippery!"?).

None of that necessarily violates in-game logic. Heck, even a +2 bonus doesn't necessarily violate in-game logic.
I don't quite see why you are framing the issue in terms of "violating ingame logic"? Very little violates ingame logic. Of all the examples that have been mentioned, the only one I can think of is a 3E dragon's natural armour bonus (at least once the upper age categories are reached).

What I'm interested in is GMing advice that tells me how to set the numbers to achieve the desired metagame effect. That doesn't require breaking ingame logic - I can easily narrate around those numbers, whether via impromptu rainstorms, as per my example above, or via a list that tells me the various difficulties that correlate to various "objective" DCs (HeroWars, in its first incarnation, used this latter approach, as does Burning Wheel; HeroQuest revised uses the former approach, as does 4e). Bounded accuracy only makes this easier, by reducing the range of numbers that have to be correlated to "objective" difficulties.

What I don't want is a system that builds gnolls (for example)n on the assumption that they will use pack tactics and high ground to make their to-hit numbers work, and then doesn't tell me that anywhere, with the consequence that when I use gnolls they suck in play. Similarly, if leader NPCs are crucial for humanoids producing an interesting play experience, I want the game text to tell me that.

More generally, I want the game text to talk to me as a GM, trying to do stuff in the real world (namely, run a fun game) and not just present all its material from the point of view of the gameworld.

All a "Page 42" has to do is give you rough targets for what is achievable in-game at those given DC's.

<snip>

Assuming you gird your in-world logic so that it produces a satisfying metagame result, you can then come at it just from the metagame as a DM, if you want, without necessarily violating that in-world logic.
Your assumption is where all the action is. Designing mechanics that resolve ingame events purely in terms of ingame causal logic in such a way as to produce satisfying metagame results is non-trivial. Runequest doesn't do it. Rolemaster doesn't do it. D&D has never really tried to do it (unless you count hit points as ingame!), but where it has I think it's success has been doubtful.

The game designers think there is some rationale to assign levels to monsters, and to assigne them various statistics and XP values at those levels. Tell me the rationale! And then tell me how to generalise it across a range of other challenges and resolution situations! This is what 4e does. Bounded accuracy should make it easier, not harder, to do the same.

The problem arises when there's only metagame logic, and the in-world logic is an afterthought.
I don't really follow this. Boardgames have only metagame logic. RPGs always have fictional position within a shared imaginary situation - that's what makes an RPG an RPG. There are interesting questions about who is in charge of stipulating the fiction when, but when we're talking about page 42 we're almost always talking about improvisation, and hence on-the-spot stipulation of the fiction.

To give another example. A player says, "Is there any higher ground? My PC wants to move onto it, to get a benefit for attacking with his bow!". As GM, should I agree that there is high ground there, or not? And if there is, what sort of benefit should it give to bowfire (and, perhaps, how hard should it be to get to it)? The more the system helps me answer those questions quickly, and to smoothly adjudicate their implications for resolution, the better.

If to decide whether or not there is high ground, the system first requires me to have regard to the prevailing rock formations and water flow patterns in the area - information that I almost certainly won't have ready to hand, and don't know how to generate - then it will have failed me!

The BW answer would be along the following lines: Let the player make a Perception check - on a success, his/her PC spots the high ground, and a good success will let the PC get a bonus to making it there - perhaps by spotting a path, or seeing how s/he can head off the NPCs". BW doesn't set a default DC for the Perception check, but its version of bounded accuracy makes setting the DC pretty easy. Then there is a positioning check to get to the high ground, which is a generic feature of each combat round in any event. And then there is the +1 bonus for being on high ground - which I determine on the basis that +1 is the default bonus for any sort of advantage.

4e doesn't normally grant higher ground advantages. And not being a "theatre of the mind" system, it makes impromptue incorporation of terrain into the battlefied trickier. But letting a player make a Hard Acro or Athletics check as part of their PCs' move (using the skill appropriate to the terrain) in order to get a one-off +2 to hit foes surprised by their repositioning would seem pretty reasonable in the overall page 42 context. (I think [MENTION=64825]wrecan[/MENTION]'s article on the WotC website suggested a move action at paragon to gain combat advantage.)

This is the sort of thing I have in mind when I say I want advice that talks to the metagame, not just to ingame logic.
 

pemerton

Legend
Intensity and investment in a situation don't come from optimising your attack bonuses and powers though.
But if the situation is a combat one, a range of tactical options permits you to engage it.

D&D spellcasters have always had this (assuming they memorise the right sort of spells).

They come from taking specific risks
Also from making choices.

Classic D&D has only limited ways for the player of a non-caster to make choices, from round to round, about risk vs reward.

from giving something up in order to achieve something else, prioritising.
I'm not sure what sort of "giving up" you have in mind. Do you mean memorising spell A rather than spell B? I personally don't think that gives a lot of investment in a situation.

Do you mean "taking option A when you could tak option B instead"? That seems similar to making choices about risk vs reward. 4e supports it, in multiple dimensions (action economy, resource recovery rates, etc)

Whipping out a utility power to give you +2 AC for the round is about as far from intensity as it gets: it's mundane, it's economic, it's housekeeping.
Actually, if that power is a daily or encounter power, or has some other sort of cost (eg in the action economy) it can be quite dramatic. And once the trade offs also involve conferring benefits on other PCs, that intensity can increase.

Given that 4e doesn't have Fate Points, decisions about when to use utility buffs, healing powers etc fill the same functional space as the decision about when to use a Fate Point would, in a game that has them.

A storytelling version of D&D, a version that had even more fiction investment that 4E does for you, would surely eschew highly specific combat for something more akin to skill challenges?

<snip>

You don't like the stop-motion nature of combat, but you do enjoy tracking everyone's specific position and distance. I don't understand. Surely theatre of the mind combat would make better sense to you? Surely simultaeneous actions (declared together than acted together) would make better sense to you? Interrupts break the stepped flow, as you say, but specific positioning, movement, ranges and areas of effect make the game about accounting, not fiction.

<snip>

If the awesome comes from how you do something, and not what you do, why the heck do I have to keep track of so many fiddly little numbers to figure out what I do? If I say my primal spirits allow me to channel great force into my attacks, so that I'll be able to knock people around the battlefield with my hammer, that's awesome. When it comes to the actual reality though, it just amounts to more damage, and picking my precise position to knock them precisely into a pit/fire unless they save, the chances of which I have almost no ways to influence.
I've been GMing for nearly 30 years, and using maps and tokens for the past 4 (ie since I started GMing 4e). I've got plenty of familiarity with "theatre of the mind" combat. I've also GMed a lot of "continous initiative" (simutaneous declaration and then resolution) Rolemaster.

In the end there is no accounting for taste. All I can say is that I don't find the maps+mini aspect of 4e "accounting" rather than fiction. There are episodes that I've probably linked to above (like the beholder fight and the hydra fight described here[/url) that I'm pretty sure I couldn't have run as I did in other systems. And I don't find the forced movement, bonus damage, etc elements of resolution to be mere fiddliness.

No doubt something very interesting could be done with a skill-challenge style system: looser keywords (like the 4e skill labels, which work something like loose descriptors) would promote creativity and flexibility in combat. But it would be inevitably be more abstract than 4e combat (or Rolemaster or Runequest combat, for that matter), and I'm not sure this is a strict advantage. There is a physicality to combat that I'm not sure a skill challenge would capture. (@Manbearcat has worked harder than I have at running physical skill challenges. They're not really my thing.)

It seems pretty clear that if you want the challenges to be the same relative difficulty as the characters attain higher levels, you use more difficult challenges in-game. You're asking for a table that is trivial to calculate and will probably be included in the final rules. What they're not doing is saying 'you should use this DC for characters of this level' - partly because of bounded accuracy, partly because many people didn't like that.
Well, "level" in 4e is just a shorthand for a range of expected bonuses. With bounded accuracy it should be mostly unnecessary, though it depends how bounded the accuracy really is.

If the table I want is in the final rules, good! As for it being trivial to calculate - probably, but there are multiple factors in play in a world of bounded accuracy: typical monster numbers in relationship to monster level, the range of PC bonuses from class, feat, spells, items, etc; and the default setting, which presumably contains only finitely many places/things/events of greater than modest difficulty. I want the game to tell me what sorts of fiction its default rules support that will not be mechancially boring, and to give me the tools to help produce that.

You don't need to enforce a metagame for narratives to emerge - it seems that you find it harder to do so without that.
No, but it helps produce exciting narrative if the game rules are designed with that goal in mind. This is the express logic of systems like Burning Wheel or HeroWars/Quest with a simple/complex contest dichotomy in their resolution mechanics: when you want it to be over quickly, because it's only a minor point in the game, use a simple contest; when you want it to be a big deal, use a complex contest. It's about desinging a mechanical framework that gives players the appropriate points at which to intervene, and the appropriate resources to do so; and about keeping in mind the narrative consequences that will flow from those resolution.

In those cases in which a D&D combat could be reduced to a %likelihood of the PCs prevailing, not many people would think it would make no difference to play to just substitute a percentile dice roll for the actual process of resolution. That in itself is a recognition that the metagame matters.

As for achieving exciting narratives - yes, I find that harder with mechanics that get in the way. Simple example: Rolemaster healing mechanics tend to distract from exciting narratives, because they requires spending quite a bit of real time during the play of a session ascertaining the precise severity of PC injuries, working out how long healing of each injury (naturally or via magic) takes, and combining those times into a total recovery time. Furthermore, there are no training or "work for pay" mechanics to be rolled out in such situations that allow the other PCs who are not healing to profitably pass their time in the meanwhile - which marks up the dynamics of party play.

That doesn't mean that I haven't got exciting narratives out of Rolemaster. Even scry, buff, teleport sometimes produces exciting narratives. But not reliably, because of the emphasis it leads to on time spent planning compared to time spent resolving (especially once SoD comes into the picture).

your fiction would be better driven by ignoring XP altogether - the characters improve at appropriate dramatic points (ie: upon quest completion).
Perhaps (probably, even), and the 4e DMG canvasses this option. In part, though, I'm curious to see how the game plays following the designers' default pacing advice.

I don't see how giving dragons some arbitrary AC is any different in 3E from 4E. In each case they wanted to make them appropriate threats for the level they were designed to be faced at.
My point was that 3E uses "natural armour" as a figleaf to pretend that there is no metagame. Which only leads to players asking "How can my PC get natural armour that good?" - an approach that breaks the metagame. Whereas 4e is upfront about the presence and function of the metagame.

character classes get weapon attack bonuses, presumably to represent their proficiency with such things. Monsters do not - in fact their to hit bonuses are completely abstract. The metagame desire for drama can be reflected with equally applicable rules to both PC and monster, they just haven't got the numbers right.
My point is that, unless we acknowledge the importance of the metagame, there is no such thing as getting the numbers right. You can't do it just reasoning from ingame considerations alone.

If the players know the rules the DM has to follow, they abuse them, plain and simple. If you've just had a series of encounters that awarded above-level XP in 4E, you knew the rest of the level would be a cakewalk, because the DM was following the metagame rules.
I don't follow this. My players just finished a level+5 encounter (level 18 PCs, level 23 encounter). How can they infer from that that the rest of level 18 will be a cakewalk? What if they don't get an extended rest? What if the next encounter is also level+5? Heck, given that only the paladin has any healing surges left, but is all out of Lay on Hands, what if the next encounter is level+1?

There is a piece of the picture you have in mind that I'm not seeing.
 

VinylTap

First Post
I'm really not trying to make value judgements on 4th or 5th or anything else. You guys love your game and want to continue loving it. I think that's great. 4th is a great game as were a lot of the previous DND products. People are right, my 4th experience is pretty limited, but I'm not trying to slam it, merely isolate differences so people have a more common point of reference to argue/discuss it. There's obviously no way to play a RPG "properly" but within the realms of RAW, we can, at the very least, distill variances in pattern, direction and emphasis. Discussions involving house rules etc are pretty meaningless-- that's up to you and your group.

I feel like a lot of the "RPG experience", in general, can be difficult to articulate well. When I was doing research on a system, to start with some friends, I looked at a lot of them. It was quite a bit after the 3.5 >> 4th transition, but a lot of the resentment was still there in the 3.5 community, and a lot of it was hard to understand coming from an outsider with limited PNP RPG experience.

Trying to get at exactly "why" the experiences between 3.5 > 4th was different, why it stirred up so much resentment and what was actually going on as far as game mechanics were concerned.... that was much more difficult to figure out. The sources I looked often just couldn't articulate it, it was mostly just a lot of frustration and nerd rage. What was so different between systems? And just why did so many prefer the old mechanics to the new?

After a lot of research (most of the best coming from this board) I was beginning see why WOTC made the changes they did, and how those change affected the meta-game. 3.5 and 4th look pretty similar aesthetically, but I think the meta-games are objectionably different. These differences can be obscured through house rules and other changes, but from a RAW perspective, its hard to argue 4th wasn't a new direction for the game.

I really don't think the 'Core DND next" rules will have a lot to offer 4th ed. enthusiasts. It takes the focus off a "structured limited combat system" and pulls it back more towards an open/mailable system that's pretty unsuited for the level of tactical interaction that 4th has traditionally encouraged. WOTC has something in mind for that type of play, but its going to come from an extended module, not from anything within the core system. Ripping every Next update apart looking for phantoms of 4th is pretty futile, you're not going find what you're looking for-- its a different game.

IMHO.
 

No doubt something very interesting could be done with a skill-challenge style system: looser keywords (like the 4e skill labels, which work something like loose descriptors) would promote creativity and flexibility in combat. But it would be inevitably be more abstract than 4e combat (or Rolemaster or Runequest combat, for that matter), and I'm not sure this is a strict advantage. There is a physicality to combat that I'm not sure a skill challenge would capture. (@Manbearcat has worked harder than I have at running physical skill challenges. They're not really my thing.

I saw @Ratskinner 's post in the other thread that you're referring to here. I think it would be very easy to compose an abstract, quick-resolution-driven, TotM compatible combat system for 4e that would map to the Skill Challenge analog. In fact, with a little bit of thought and effort I'm sure one of us could put one together and the rest of us could quality control the product to make it highly functional. It would be a useful tool and would help both standard 4e players and those looking for more symmetry in their resolution systems like Ratskinner. However, as a resolution tool to handle all of combat, I'm certain that the loss of granularity and accompanying detail/flavor in PC build would be a net negative for many (most?) 4e advocates.

This actually hits on one of the issues I was referring to upthread (PC build resources and their impact on expressing theme and archetype). First and foremost, I come from the line of thinking (and corresponding playstyle preference) that D&D is a game about warriors (the generic) carving heroic stories out of a vulnerable world's "points of darkness" medium by way of (fantasy/high-fantasy) adventures. Much like the branches of the military, each warrior will have a trade, and accompanying tools/training, that differentiates him considerably from another warrior. To extend it further, he will have his own background/behaviors/skills/training that pre-date his formal military training. If you're telling a story about him "in theatre" or painting a portrait of him, and you want the story to address the specific themes and training inherent to his warrior heritage, there needs to be a decent level of granularity lest he could easily be exchanged out for any other generic warrior (from any other branch or background). A system that provides the tools to do so, will allow you to tell different stories about different warriors and successfully capture their essence.

American Football is about the game on Sunday (and all of its in-game drama, depth, position battles, and momentum swings). For the audience/viewer/fan, it is not about the preparation. It is not about the game-planning the opponent during the week, watching film, practicing, rehabilitating injuries or post-game fatigue, managing the waiver wire to fill out an in-flux roster. These things are still very important to the game and they fascinate fans and the ardent ones follow them with vigor...but they do so in a much more shallow, distant way (with an accompanying shallow understanding) that distills the essence of these "non-game" components, allowing them to incorporate that aspect of being a fan into their ritualistic experience. And thus, they make the "NFL Football Game" (what the story of being an American Football fan is about) that they will be watching, and all of the intense granularity within, more impactful and they heighten the experience.

One more. I'm not a musician so this one is going to be much more gross. In my understanding of music, its organization is primarily about the composition, granularity and depth of the Melody. The Harmony and the Rhythm assist in the realization of the Melody's composition, granularity and depth. As such, the story of music is primarily about the Melody with the other elements providing color and assisting to heighten the experience and theme of the Melody. I'm terribly sorry to those formally trained if I have erred somewhat there. That is my extremely limited understanding so I may have the terms slightly off or my understanding may be slightly askew.

Given what D&D is about IME (the heroic warrior's story), the game is not "about" Skill Challenges or non-combat resolution. Therefore, resolution mechanics that distill these things to their bare essence (training in Acrobatics means that you're dextrous and have these general skillsets...we don't need to extend it to your ranks in back-handsprings, front-handsprings, somersaults, etc) and ad-hoc in-filling where more granularity is wanted or warranted works very naturally (and intuitively). These non-combat scenes will round out a character, his theme and the genre's expectations/conventions, but for the "heroic warrior's story" these components (while extremely necessary) are the coat of paint and trim level rather than the chasis and engine.

Regarding coherency and symmetry of tools: When building a house, you need all manner of tools. Some will probably be more front and center than others. The story of "Building a House" is primarily about the hand-saw, the drill, the hammer and the nails. However, you don't just throw out (or transmute) the scraper, the trowel, the brushes because they don't have the same coherency of application within the framework of the "Building a House" story. Their own nuance is necessary to convey/express the composition of the house. To exclude them, or put a hammer/saw in their place, would ultimately setup a failure of the sought end.

Wow. I've probably used up my "horrible explanation by way of gross analogies" credits. In fact, I'm sure I'm well into the red.
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], I agree that "the warrior" has a central place in heroic fantasy in a way that "the front handspringer" does not. And that it is this centrality that helps warrant 4e's detailed treatment of combat in comparison to non-combat.

But I also think that there is something about the physicality of combat that means it lends itself to a detailed treatment. I'm not saying that an RPG has to treat combat in detail - that would be silly. But I find it hard to envision treating social conflict with the same degree of detail. BW breaks melee combat down into heartbeats, for example - but I can't imagine breaking the resolution of a debate down into heartbeats and BW (with its Duel of Wits) doesn't try to. When you break a combat down into that level of detail, you can still see events that are meaningful elements of the combat - slashes, parries, footwork etc. If you break a debate down into that level of detail, you can no longer see meaningful elements of the debate - you're into individual words or sentence fragments or pauses for breath whose contribution to the debate has become invisible.

I think what I'm saying is that, if you want to do combat in intimate detail, you can. And heroic fantasy has a natural reason to want to do so. Whereas, even if you wanted to do social conflict in intimate mechanical detail, it is much harder. Should a narrativist engine therefore do all conflict only at the abstact level? That's a reasonable way to go (Maelstrom Storytelling, HeroWars/Quest), but I don't think it has to be the only way to go (Burning Wheel, 4e).
 

@pemerton

Yup, that is pretty much where I'm at.

D&D specifically can have thematic parlays, barrister/magistrate/courtroom disputes, narrow escapes from elaborate temple traps, horseback/mining cart chases and all other manner of social and exploration conflict that needs resolution. However, given that D&D is "the warrior's story" (and accordingly, combat and its resolution is central), these resolutions provide color and texture and serve to round out our fiction. If these renderings are made overly granular (by way of methodical resolution tools), we risk losing not only the pace to our story generally and we risk losing the specific pace and color contributions that these genre conventions add to the sum-total of our fiction. In my experience, given combats centrality (assuming that the mechanics are not needlessly opaque, tedious or "grindy"), it doesn't suffer from this same dynamic (well, it can if the user is particularly lacking in proficiency and efficiency).

If Indiana Jones's escape from the temple (in the first scene of "Raiders of the Lost Ark") is broken down too deeply (a la, rather than 1 abstract roll and step you have 4 mechanical steps/rounds to determine initiative, the pace of the boulder relative to Indiana's pace, squeeze rules, friction rules for the boulder interfacing with the tunnel's walls/ceiling, etc), the tension and pace of the scene is at-risk. An interface that reproduces this as elegantly as possible while empowering the PCs to affect the scene through their build resources (Skills, Powers) and map the fiction to those outcomes poses much less of a risk while fulfilling the requirements. This is especially so given that "Temple Raider Escaping the Giant Mouse Trap" is a peripheral (albeit extremely important) element of "The Warrior's Story".

Its not the only way to go. But the "way to go" is contingent upon the default expectations of the system and the genre (what is central and what is peripheral/color).
 

pemerton

Legend
my 4th experience is pretty limited, but I'm not trying to slam it, merely isolate differences so people have a more common point of reference to argue/discuss it.

<snip>

These differences can be obscured through house rules and other changes, but from a RAW perspective, its hard to argue 4th wasn't a new direction for the game.
My own view, as I expressed upthread (post 51), is that you have not successfully isolated the relevant differences. In particular, your claim that "solving your problem without ever drawing you sword . . . was outside of the [4e] system" is not borne out either by the 4e rules text, or the way people on these boards post about their 4e play. I linked to some examples of play from my own game to illusrate the point.

And I don't think that talking about house rules is really apposite here. Skill challenges, the skill rules generally, quests, utility powers, rituals: these aren't house rules, they're core elements of 4e.

That's not to deny that there are differences. I itemised some in my own post. But the differences, in my view, have little or nothing to do with "quantitiative" resolution or "limits".

why did so many prefer the old mechanics to the new?

After a lot of research (most of the best coming from this board) I was beginning see why WOTC made the changes they did, and how those change affected the meta-game. 3.5 and 4th look pretty similar aesthetically, but I think the meta-games are objectionably different.
I personally don't have a strong sense of what people are doing with 3E, other than using it to run Paizo adventure paths.

But it seems that many RPGers object to game rules that are overt about the metagame. So they prefer a "natural armour bonus", calculated to be level-appropriate, to 4e's "metagame" setting of monster ACs, even though the only consequences of labelling the bonus a "natural armour" one are bad for the game: it creates needless confusion about what the number actually means ingame (if Plate +5 - the best armour mortal smiths can forge from the most powerful meteoric metals available - gives a +13 to AC, what the heck does a +30 "natural armour" bonus even mean?); and it motivates players to have their PCs seek out such bonuses for themselves, which (if successful) completely undoes the whole point of the bonus in the first place, which is to achieve a degree of metagame balance in the combat rules.

I'm very much the wrong person to try to sympathetically interpret this particular preference in game design. In my experience it seems to go along with a general assumption about the use of force by the GM, to keep "the story" and "the setting" on track, which is utterly contrary to my own preferences.

But for someone who has that sort of preference, I can see how 4e would be "objectionably different" from 3E. Conversely, for someone like me, who very much enjoys the traditional tropes of fantasy RPGing, but finds the minutiae of simulationist resolution a distraction from the real focus of play, and who finds the anti-metagame figleaves of "natural armour bonuses" and the like an obstacle to smooth build and resolution mechanics, the differences are not objectionable but desirable. But for 4e, I wouldn't be playing or GMing a D&D game - I'm pretty sure I'd be using D&D materials (sourcebooks, adventure modules etc) to support a HARP game.

I really don't think the 'Core DND next" rules will have a lot to offer 4th ed. enthusiasts. It takes the focus off a "structured limited combat system" and pulls it back more towards an open/mailable system that's pretty unsuited for the level of tactical interaction that 4th has traditionally encouraged.
D&Dnext as currently published can't support 4e combat, that is true. But I don't think this is because it has fewer limits. I think it's because (at present, at least) it has less power.

Here's a description of some recent encounters in my 4e game, including combat encounters. Some of the combat encounters described - the demons in the temple, the dracolich and the death giants - could be run in any of the fantasy RPGs I'm familiar with. But there are encounters there - the beholders, the hydra and (mabye to a lesser extent) the nightwalker with its bodaks - that could only be run in 4e. That's not because those encounters rely on "limits" or "quantitative" resolution. It's because 4e has the tools to handle terrain, mobility, position, and improvised actions, and also has resolution mechanics that ensure that the pacing and tension come out reliably: no cakewalks, no first-turn TPKs, the tide of battle ebbing and flowing as a consequence not just of lucky or unlucky dice rolls, but as a result of the choices made by the various participants in the game, and the downstream consequences of those choices.

When the focus is turned from combat to non-combat, there are plenty of fantasy RPGs that can handle intricate social conflict or exploration/physical challenges as strongly as 4e. I personally don't think that 3E is one of those systems, though, because it doesn't have strong rules for scene framing and scene-oriented resolution. In 3E, for example, having a really high Diplomacy bonus doesn't mean that social confilcts become epic and engaging in their resolution. Rather, it means that they don't happen - the GM frames a social conflict, the player applies his/her PCs extreme Diplomacy bonus, and then the GM has to refram the scene as one in which there is no social conflict, because the NPC/monster has come under the PC's spell.

D&Dnext doesn't yet have any mechanics for social conflict, so it's hard to compare it to 3E or 4e. But given the promises about "3 pillars", I would like to see some resolution mechanisms at least comparable in power to 4e's.
 

An addendum to my above post. When I was speaking on granularity within the mechanics of non-combat resolution, I was speaking only to Simulation mechanics (which is what I included in the boulder scene). I didn't speak to Narrative mechanics (such as bartering the proper usage of thematic disadvantage - or other elements - for author stance or editorial control/narrative points). These are, in my experience, not in the least bit intrusive to "a warrior's story" and the gains in narrative pro-activity and dynamism are large. I would welcome a module of this variety. I just didn't include this as beggars cannot be choosers and, if anything, it seems that 5e is going in the opposite direction (simulationist, actor stance, world-building agenda).

If there will be a Skill Challenge - esque resolution tool in 5e I would settle for one that is just not "worse than what we have" and overburdened with process-simulation complexity.
 

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