D&D 5E More maneuvers at low level.

fjw70 · Nov 5, 2012

One thing I don’t like about the maneuvers is that the lower level rogues and fighters don’t know enough of them. Instead of getting maneuvers as you level up what about getting all of your style’s maneuvers right away at 1st level. You will still be getting more and better dice as you level, but I would like to see low-level rogues and fighters have more to spend their dice on. This option would make the fighter and rogue more interesting at lower levels.

Also instead of an extra attack at 6th level how about picking a second style and getting all five of its maneuvers at 6th? So as a fighter you would have 6 maneuvers at 1st and 11 at 6th,

Another alternative would be to get a new maneuver every level.

DEFCON 1 · Nov 5, 2012

This would require all maneuvers to be about the same level in lamenes-- er... I mean, power. You can't make any one maneuver more powerful than another. We already have the issue where the GM can just let players make up their own Style or Scheme and thus take the higher-level maneuvers whenever they want... this would only compound the problem.

On top of that... class frontloading was one of the biggest issues with multiclassing, and this would be another place where your suggestion would really screw things up. Take 1 level of Fighter and get 5 maneuvers out of it.

Lots of pain for little gain methinks.

B.T. · Nov 5, 2012

No, this would be too confusing for new players.

Ferghis · Nov 5, 2012

Not only confusing, it would dramatically dilute the reward for leveling up. Maneuvers are roughly equivalent to a caster's spells. The main reward of leveling up is to be able to do new things. If you take this away, you better come up with some great new stuff to give characters that level up.

Howndawg · Nov 5, 2012

I would like to see both fighters and rogues get more maneuvers, but as they level up not right out of the gate.

fjw70 · Nov 5, 2012

The new player problem is easy to solve. Don’t use fighting styles. Just give them deadly strike and slowly introduce maneuvers as you think they are ready.

As to multi-classing, they are already working on the front loading issue. I would rather find a new way to multi-class than to only start with 2 maneuvers.

To address the level-up issue I wouldn’t be opposed to starting with a full style’s worth of maneuvers and getting a new one every even level. It is still only 11 maneuvers at 10th level.

I love the expertise dice. I just don’t think you have to play for months and months just to have a bunch of cool things to use them on.

If most people don’t play past level 10 then let’s make the most of levels 1-10.

As far as complexity the rules could have three options.

A) Low complexity fighter = Deadly Strike only

B) Medium complexity fighter = Deadly Strike plus one other at 1st level, and new maneuvers at 2, 4, 8, 10.

C) High complexity fighter = Deadly Strike plus a full fighting style at 1st, and new maneuvers at 2, 4, 8, 10.

Yes, I like those options.

WhatGravitas · Nov 5, 2012

Getting all of them... sounds too much. I do think it's nice to have at least some variety (2-3 right out of the gate), but gaining and learning at least some new manoeuvres and a wider range of them is a decent reward for levelling up.

Ferghis · Nov 6, 2012

I hear your love for the expertise maneuvers. I'm pretty thrilled about them myself. I would compromise by saying give them one extra maneuver at first level.

fjw70 said:
To address the level-up issue I wouldn’t be opposed to starting with a full style’s worth of maneuvers and getting a new one every even level. It is still only 11 maneuvers at 10th level.

That doesn't fully address the dilution of the reward. If I sat down with a wizard at the same table, I would want a similar boost of options at level one. If the fighter gets a bunch of extra options, why can't the wizard?

... And then the advantage of gaining more options later would be much less valuable to me.

Ultimatecalibur · Nov 6, 2012

I would give the Fighter Deadly Strike, an expanded version of Mighty Exertion (one that grants bonuses to Str, Dex or Con skill checks), a choice of Great Fortitude or an expanded Lightning Reflexes (one that grants bonuses to Dex saves and Initiative checks), and one signature maneuver for their Fighting style at first level.

The Rogue would get Skill Mastery, a more acceptable version of Sneak Attack, a choice of the expanded Lightning Reflexes or Slippery Mind (bonus to Int and Cha saves), and a signature maneuver for their Scheme.

Ultimatecalibur · Nov 6, 2012

Ferghis said:
I hear your love for the expertise maneuvers. I'm pretty thrilled about them myself. I would compromise by saying give them one extra maneuver at first level.

That doesn't fully address the dilution of the reward. If I sat down with a wizard at the same table, I would want a similar boost of options at level one. If the fighter gets a bunch of extra options, why can't the wizard?

... And then the advantage of gaining more options later would be much less valuable to me.

The Wizard already gets 7 options at first level and gains 2 more each level with the possibility of getting more as treasure.